Hannah Otto recently became the fastest known woman to ride the 137-mile-long Kokopelli’s trail from Moab, Utah to Loma, Colorado, besting the previous fastest known time by over an hour. In addition to racing gravel and mountain bikes, she’s also a certified athletic trainer.
- How do you feel now that you can finally talk about your accomplishment? Were you worried someone else would make an FKT attempt between then and now?
- In October you made your first attempt, but it didn’t work out. What happened.
- What did you do differently the second time around?
- What was your bike setup? What did you eat?
- How do you pace yourself for a ride like this?
- Do you think this FKT rules that should be updated or clarified to allow film crews as long as they don’t offer any assistance?
- How much of a role does luck play in mountain bike racing, versus skill and fitness?
- Do individual time trials also make you a faster racer in more traditional events, or is this a specialized skill set?
- What’s next? Do you have any more FKT attempts on the horizon?
Keep up with Hannah on Instagram @hannah_finchamp.
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Automated transcript
Jeff Barber 0:00
Hey everybody, welcome to the Singletracks podcast. My name is Jeff, and today my guest is Hannah Otto. Hannah recently became the fastest known woman to ride the 137 mile long kopellis trail from Moab, Utah to Loma, Colorado, besting the previous fastest known time by over an hour, in addition to racing gravel and mountain bikes, she’s also a certified athletic trainer. Thanks for joining me Hannah.
Hannah Otto 0:28
Thanks for having me. I’m so excited to talk about this.
Jeff Barber 0:31
Awesome. Well, congratulations on the finish. Must be exciting.
Hannah Otto 0:37
Thank you. Yeah, it’s been well, like we’ll talk about it’s been more than a year in the making, so that makes it extra rewarding, for sure,
Jeff Barber 0:47
So your record-breaking FKT Actually happened back in May, and so, yeah, now it’s July, and you can finally talk about it. How does that feel? Was that like, Were you nervous kind of leading up to this, or excited to tell people? Like, what were you feeling?
Hannah Otto 1:05
Oh my gosh, it’s so funny. Like, the last couple days the film came out, just a couple days ago, we’re recording this right away. I feel like the last couple days, it’s been the first time regarding this project, have actually exhaled, because we have gone through so much with it, you know, everything from pre writing to Okay, now I’m going to do the first attempt. What does the first attempt look like? Oh my gosh. I don’t know what this is going to look like. Can I even do it? Then you do the first attempt, and spoiler alert, I failed. And then it’s like, oh my gosh, I failed. Now I have to deal with this emotional, this whole emotional aspect of it, and then you’re going back. And you know, as an athlete, I experience nerves a lot. I get very, very nervous before races. That is a standard emotion for me. But standing on that start line for the second time after what I experienced the first time, I didn’t just experience nerves. I experienced fear. And fear is not a common emotion for me. So then going through that, experiencing that fear, you know, then getting the success of it, finally having that reward. And all the while, through all these emotions, through the disappointment, the fear, the excitement, keeping it to myself, has done so hard, so I’m so excited to finally share with the world, you know, everything we’ve been through in the last year,
Jeff Barber 2:35
yeah, yeah. Well, right, yeah. I was, initially, I was thinking, wow, you must be, like, really excited, like, I did it, but I can’t tell anybody yet. But then the other thing I thought of was like, Oh, shoot. Like, what if somebody else makes an attempt between May and July, and somehow they beat your time? Like, were you worried about that at all? It’s always
Hannah Otto 2:55
possible, for sure. I mean, you definitely keep an eye on that segment. Keep an eye on people you think might be going down there, so you never know. But of course, you want, you want the moment where the film can come out and do have the record, but that’s also a piece of this, right? Is records are set to be broken. I don’t own the record. I’m just borrowing it for whatever amount of time that is, and then someone else will borrow it for their amount of time. So I’m just thankful to have had my moment in time on the trail, and for however long that lasts, I’m grateful.
Jeff Barber 3:33
Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, I mean, did that go into your planning at all, though? Because it sounds like, you know, the first time you did it, made the attempt was October. And then I imagine, if you’re riding in October, I mean, as we’ll talk about, that’s kind of the last chance before, like, winter hits and it gets cold, and so you figure, well, nobody’s going to do it, you know, November, December, and then I guess after May, like, right now, it’s probably way too hot for people to be going out. So was that part of it, or was it just, you know, October and may are good time of year to do it, and that’s why you picked those dates.
Hannah Otto 4:07
So that’s a really interesting question. The October date came around because I’m a racer, I have a full race schedule, and this was going to be my longest effort to date, and so there was a lot of unknown regarding that for me, of how to recover, how I would handle it. And so I wanted to do it when my race season was over, when I could do this effort, and then however long it took me to pick myself up off the ground and recover from that, I had that ability. And so for me, the end of the season was October, perfect. You can do this in the fall. The previous female record was set in, I think she did it November 3, or something like that. So again, in the fall. And so it just made sense. I at least I thought it made. Make sense. We came to find that you can’t always force things to make sense. But that was then an issue, actually, when I didn’t get it, it’s like, well, when can I do this again? Because that is a tricky thing about the CoCo Peli is it’s not available year round, like you mentioned, there is snow in the winter, and in the summer, it is so so hot that it is definitely not manageable for a record setting pace. And so you basically do it in the fall, or you do it in the spring. And I originally picked the fall because I wanted it at the end of my race season the spring, set it up in the beginning of my race season, which felt a little scary, to be honest, but after I tried that one in the fall, I wanted it so bad, I had to, I had to make space in my world to go back for the CoCo Peli. And I think in the end, it worked out really beautifully, because I did it one month before, unbound, and it felt like the perfect training for
Jeff Barber 6:03
that. Yeah, interesting. Well, so yeah, tell us a little more about that October attempt, and what happened, like, Why didn’t that work out for you?
Hannah Otto 6:14
Yeah, the October attempt, it is, for sure, the hardest thing I have ever done, and
Jeff Barber 6:22
it took me, and you’ve done a lot of hard things,
Hannah Otto 6:27
yeah, it took me to where I thought my limits were, and far beyond them. And for that, I will be forever grateful, because you don’t know where your limits are until you’re asked to hit them, because most of us, most of our brains, will pull us back before we actually hit those true limits. And this took me to a place that I’ve never been before, and I survived. I came out the other side, and I feel like that has actually given me this superpower to realize, Oh my gosh, I didn’t realize how much I actually had left most of the time. And now I feel like I have this new ability to push into that space, because I’ve been there and I’ve been further than that due to this attempt. So at this attempt, like I said, it was October, we originally were going to do October 30, actually, and every morning, leading into the attempt, I’m I’m on my phone, I’m looking at my phone, I’m looking at the weather, and the weather just keeps dropping, dropping, dropping, dropping, until I’m looking at it and I’m going doesn’t make sense, because the weather, it was getting so cold, it was clear a huge storm was rolling in. And so we said, Okay, we have to beat this storm. We’re moving it up one day last minute. We moved it one up one day to October 29 we thought we were gonna just barely sneak it in. And we woke up it seemed good in Moab. We thought, Okay, we’ve got it 35 degrees in Moab. And then you start climbing, and you climb from 4000 feet to 8000 feet, and as I climbed up there, it was clear that the weather had already rolled in at higher elevations, and I was slapped with a 20 plus mile per hour wind that was absolutely frigid. The actual temperature at the top was 17 degrees. So you add in the windchill, and it was likely in the single digits, because I was doing this self supported. I couldn’t I didn’t bring extra clothing, because I didn’t want to have to carry it all day. So I had arm warmers, leg warmers, and a Wind Jacket, and it was in single digits. Wow. My fingers froze to the point that I couldn’t move them. I actually, at one point, had them stuck in a fist, and had to stop with one hand and try and just wrench them open because they were stuck. So I definitely had some sort of frostbite or frost sniff going on there. I was hypothermic. I was shivering like crazy, despite, you know, usually your body’s spending a lot of energy cooling itself down because you’re working so hard. But despite working so hard, I was shivering uncontrollably. I was riding in in some places, two to three inches of snow, and my hydration, all of my fluids completely froze. I had no access to my fluids. And so this attempt, and this is all in the first two hours of a 13 hour day, yeah, and so I’m immediately faced with the challenge of, what do I do? Do I quit? Do I keep going? Do I try anyways? And for me, the theme of this attempt was hope, hope that it’ll get better, hope that this too will pass. And you know, I think that that hope drove me forward for the entire 13 hours, and it helped. Think that for most of that time, I was ahead of the previous fkT. I had this unbelievable you know, I had, I was, I think at most I was ever 15 minutes up. But throughout the day that got smaller and smaller and smaller, and when I entered the final single track with 12 miles to go, I was dead set tied. So with 12 miles to go, I was tied with the previous fkT, and at that point, oh my goodness, I had been so dehydrated, so nutrient you know, when you’re shivering, you’re burning more calories. I was so nutritionally depleted. I was still completely frozen. It never got above 40 degrees, even in the middle of the day at lower elevations. And I was delirious, and I missed it after all of that, after all of those hours, I came across the line 15 minutes shy, and in the moment you’re so far gone, you’re so depleted that all I could do was fall on the ground. But the next day, you wake up and you lie in bed, and you open your eyes and you say, Did that really happen? Did I really do that whole thing only to miss it in the last 12 miles. And it’s, it’s, I recognize that there’s a lot harder, emotional things to go through, but man, those next six months trying to swallow that was so frustrating. And you know, it was even though no one knew at the time, I knew this was a public failure, because this video was going out whether or not I got it again. There was no plan to redo this. And that was the day after the attempt. I went in for my post interview. We did the post with the crew. You know? I stood up and I was like, hey, you know, thank you everybody. Thank you so much. I’m sorry. I’m sorry that I missed it. I tried my hardest. Sorry if, if this messes up with the plan, and they all looked at me and were just like, Hannah, this will be the best story people can relate to failure. You’re not the only person in the world who has ever failed, and that alone was such a wonderful reaction. And the next statement out of my mouth was, well, what if I came back? Would you hold the footage? Would you let me try again? And maybe just, you know, maybe just at the end of the film, you could put like a little sentence, Hannah came back six months later and tried again and got it, and their response was, oh, no, we wouldn’t do that. We’d come back with you. And so that was, that was a really, really sweet thing with the crew, with competitive cyclists, you know, the humanity and that and the friendships we developed were really special.
Jeff Barber 13:00
Yeah, that’s, that’s awesome. And, I mean, it’s funny. Do you think you would ever come around like, let’s say you, you know, it just didn’t work out. You couldn’t do another fkT. You think you would would have eventually come around to like, Man, I got within 15 minutes despite this, these like, horrific conditions. I mean, did you ever like, I don’t know, tell yourself it’s okay, or do you think you would always carry that and just be like, failed?
Hannah Otto 13:27
Oh yeah. I mean, I think that, I think that the intellectual side of myself, of anybody, can sit down and recognize you were really close, you know, you, you were so close despite all of that, you know. And what’s funny is now that I do have it, which makes it actually easier to take a deep breath. 1000 foot view, look back, I’m more proud of the first attempt than the second one, which is really cool. And I think it’s so funny, because the whole thing, you know, originally, we were filming this record breaking ride, and now, to me, this film, the record, is not the part that I want people to walk away from. I don’t want, you know, that’s great, it’s cool. But I don’t need people to walk away from this film going, oh my gosh, she set the record. What I want people to walk away from is understanding that it’s okay to fail you just try again, because I think we’ve all been there. And you know for me that failure, it gave me so much more than the success gave me. It changed my perspective of what hard is. Nothing feels as hard anymore because I did that first attempt, and that’s what gave me the superpower in that second attempt, was every time I was out there and something felt hard, it felt impossible, it felt like I can’t do this. You know, whatever it might be if that was my. First time doing it, maybe I would have given in a little bit and not beat it by quite so much, but because I had done that first attempt, and I knew what it was like to truly bring yourself to the limit, I could feel those things. I could feel this is so hard and say, but it’s not the hardest. You’ve done something even harder, and it gave me this ability to it made me stronger. It made me stronger than I’ve ever been, not just physically, but mentally. And I think anyone who has been through a major challenge will absolutely relate to that.
Jeff Barber 15:36
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it kind of reminds me of this idea of type two, fun, right? Like, for those of us who don’t race, who ride just for fun, and we all have these rides that end up being really tough or painful, or, you know, the weather’s bad, and in the moment, we’re like, this is awful. I hate this. I’m never riding my bike again. And then you get back, and, you know, for me, depends how bad it is, right? Sometimes it’s sometimes next day, sometimes it’s a month later that I look back, but I look back and I’m like, actually, you know, that was kind of fun. Like, is that the same thing, or is this like a different thing, like racing, it’s not supposed to be fun. Or is it like, are you going to look back and be like, That was a great ride. Were you always going to be like, No, that was hard. That sucked.
Hannah Otto 16:22
Oh, it was hard. I don’t think I can, in good conscience say, like, oh, that first attempt riding in frigid conditions was fun, but I wouldn’t change a single thing about it. Like, I’m so thankful for that, like I said, because it offered me this new perspective. And so I think again, even like you’re saying, right, like you come back, it wasn’t fun. You didn’t have fun, you’re thinking, oh my gosh, I don’t want to ever do that again. Please. Never again. But you’re stronger because of it. And I think that that’s, you know, it makes you realize that you’re capable of and as people, I think that’s it’s such a valuable thing on and off the bike to realize that we are stronger than we think we are is really empowering.
Jeff Barber 17:12
Yeah, that’s awesome. Awesome message. So I’m curious, did you, did you make any adjustments to, like your strategy or your equipment, or anything for the second time around. Or was it just like, well, at least it won’t be cold, like this. It’ll go fine because it won’t be cold. Or, yeah, what was your second attempt? Like?
Hannah Otto 17:33
Yeah, I had a couple equipment changes, a couple different strategy changes, I would say, you know, probably the biggest change was that I actually did take a little bit more so, you know, one of the things i i realized in that first attempt was a lot can go wrong out there, you know. And I was new, I was naive, and I realized how you cannot always anticipate everything. And for me, a huge difference in the second attempt was that realization this will not be perfect. You know, I come from a racing background where we try and make things perfect, especially in xCO, you know, where it’s like we’re talking about grams, we’re talking about seconds. This 13 hours, 12 hours, it will not be perfect. Instead, what you have to find confidence is, is the fact that you can adapt to any imperfection. And so that was a lot of my mindset The second time was not trying to make things perfect, but rather trying to focus on my ability to adapt and finding confidence in that. And so I did take, I had, like, a little bit bigger top two bag the second time I took a little bit more. I took a Yi suede pack with a little extra pouch on the back that had more space so that I could bring a little bit more at the second attempt. And largely what that more was was actually nutrition. So from the first attempt to the second attempt was six months, and it does take some time to train your gut to do to take in huge amounts. Anyone’s who’s ever eaten during exercise knows that it can be really hard to eat. And the first time I probably ate somewhere between 70 to 80 grams of carbs per hour, which is honestly like pretty solid. But if you extrapolate that across a 13 hour effort, you know the whole day is somewhere in the eight to 9000 calorie range, so you’re still finishing in a huge deficit. And so the second attempt I practiced in those six months bumping those numbers up, and was closer to 100 grams of carbs per hour in the second attempt.
Jeff Barber 19:57
Okay, yeah, that’s one of the things I was curious to. About, like, what did you eat, like, just pure, like, energy bar kind of stuff and just pure carbs, or did you have at least something a little more, hopefully, a little more delicious than that?
Hannah Otto 20:11
Yeah, it’s funny again, because you do have to carry everything. And you know, a lot of us racers, we are used to getting our calories in the liquid form. But when you’re so limited in the amount of liquids that you get across this ride, you have to become a little more creative. So I only had planned. I only planned the opportunity to stop one time at Dewey Bridge, which is about halfway, and I carried a total of two and a half liters. So my goal was if I finished all of that by the time I got to duty, that means I would get to replace all of that, which meant that I would have five liters across the 13 hours. And it’s funny, because I talked to the dietitian that I worked with for I was like, is that insane? Does that make sense? And she’s like, Well, do you have an option? I was like, no. And she was like, then let’s not even go into it. So you know that that’s pushing the limits, for sure, the amount of fluid, at least for me and my body and my sweat rate that I can tolerate for that amount of time. So anyways, I couldn’t just rely on high carb drink mixes. I did pack my first two and a half liters really high with high carb drink mix I took. I’m sponsored by first endurance so I use their liquid shots, and I took 18 of those throughout. So if anyone has ever taken, you know, those type of liquid shot, you know, type of gel packets, that’s almost an entire box of them. So that is a lot. I also had a couple of bars in addition to that, and that was, those were my primary source of nutrition throughout the whole thing. And that came out to about 5000 calories worth of nutrition, all in all. One other thing I did have that I think people think is funny is, you know, across across 12 or 13 hours. It’s so easy to say 12 or 13 hours, 12 or 13 hours, but when you play that out, you wake up, you get ready, you have go to work, you have three meals, you come home, you watch TV like that’s a full day. It’s a work day plus. So think about what you’re doing across that it is a long time. And while carbohydrate is what is fueling me throughout that, it’s a long time to deprive your body of protein, and even though you maybe don’t need the protein during that activity to fuel yourself forward, one of the things that protein does is it satiates. And so you might, even though you’re fueling yourself, you might experience hunger without protein. And so at hour four and hour eight, I plan to take in about 10 grams of protein, and I did that with these little, tiny meat sticks that I carried with me on the ride as well.
Jeff Barber 23:09
Yeah, nice. That makes sense too, because, yeah, it’s salty too. I mean, I guess your drink mix hopefully has like, the right amount of salts in Yes,
Hannah Otto 23:18
but yeah, you’re, for sure, getting the right sodium content through drink mix, but it still tastes sweet. You’re not having that, right? Whatever it would be, the taste sensation of the salty. Yeah,
Jeff Barber 23:31
yeah, interesting. So what, what did your whole setup weigh like, I imagine is still very lightweight, even though you’re saying you you brought more than the first attempt. But did you weigh your bike, like with all your gear on
Hannah Otto 23:43
it? That’s a good question. I actually never did weigh my bike, but it, I mean, honestly, you’re right. It wasn’t, it wouldn’t have been that much because on the bike, I had a small, very small resign light, and I had two small top two bags that one of them was full of it had a battery pack and then food. And the other one had, like, a tube, a small thing of chain lube and an SOS device. So not that many extra things on the bike,
Jeff Barber 24:16
yeah. And this is like, I assume, which bike did you use? One of your race bikes,
Hannah Otto 24:21
yeah, I used my pivot Mach four SL, and I used it in the World Cup Mode, so 100 millimeters in the front and 95 in the rear. So still very much a racer set up. Yeah. And, you know, like, it’s such a balancing act. And this was a huge balance. Was a big word for this attempt, because, you know, like I said, You need to be robust. You don’t want to have issues. You don’t want to have mechanicals. Those are the slowest possible things you can have. But at the same time, there’s 16,000 feet of climbing, so you don’t want to put yourself at too much of a. Disadvantage by carrying unnecessary weight. And so it is a balance of you do want the lightest, fastest equipment, but then you want to be conservative with how you set up that equipment.
Jeff Barber 25:13
Yeah, interesting. Well, maybe this is a dumb question, but just looking at the video, the film that you made, which will have a link to that in the show notes. Great video. Everybody should watch it right after we talk. But in the video, and based on the parts of the Kokopelli that I’ve written, it’s not super technical. Maybe, maybe there are some sections that are really technical. So my dumb question is, would a gravel bike make sense? Like, could you do it as fast, or maybe faster, on a gravel bike? I
Hannah Otto 25:45
don’t know if you could even make it on a gravel bike, to be honest. I think you’re right. There are some sections where I think people would look at it and think, you know, the first two hour climb, there’s a 30 mile flat section in the middle. So that’s about 50 miles, I would say, of the 137 that could work on a gravel bike. But then the other, whatever that is, 80, right? Yeah, 87 miles are pretty robust. There’s some solid, okay, rock rolls. There’s a it’s, it’s very physical trial. A lot of you know, small six to 12 inch ledges that you’re lifting your front wheel up over and over or riding down over and over. So I think between the compliance factor, which, as we know, especially as we see tires get wider and wider, is speed, but also the physical factor, like you need your body to not be getting beat up so much across the course of that effort.
Jeff Barber 26:48
Yeah, that makes sense. And I’m sure, I’m sure it’s been done, and I’m sure you could do it on a gravel bike, but those descents, you you’d go a lot slower, I’m sure, than on a mountain bike,
Hannah Otto 26:59
yeah? And I think, you know, even across the people who have claimed these fastest known times. So looking at Pete, stetnat, Kurt, Kate Rebecca rush, you know, they’ve all done it, not only on mountain bikes, but on full suspension mountain bikes. And I think Pete even mentioned that he would have loved having even more suspension than his bike had. So I think it’s just the anyone who’s ridden in that Moab area knows that it’s just it’s very rough, very harsh terrain that really adds up across those hours. And you do finish the final, the final 12 miles of the the course, the in the singletrack are extremely technical. Those are very, very challenging. You know, even doing them fresh, I’m not quite sure if I could do that 12 miles without getting off the bike, because there are so many big challenges in there, and especially when you’re that fatigued at the end, you know, cross eyed kind of shaking a little bit just from the fatigue it gets. It gets pretty hairy in there.
Jeff Barber 28:15
Yeah, yeah, that’s crazy. So yeah, you mentioned that, you know, a number of folks have attempted fkts on the Kokopelli Trail. Caitlin Boyle and Kurt refsneider. You know, Lachlan Morton recently did one there. Why do you think there’s so much interest in the Kokopelli Trail? What made you go for this fkT since so many other people have done it,
Hannah Otto 28:39
I fell in love with it. I think it’s one of those trails that it offers so much. And across those 137 miles, there’s so many different types of terrain. You know, you go from the Valley of Moab up to high alpine riding, you have big burly descents back down into this, you know, sort of Creek area. You have huge hiker bikes with these big old boulders you have, you know, these desert, just plain sections that just feel so desolate that you can do a 360 and see absolutely nothing for miles and miles, you have singletrack areas that’ll test even the best mountain bikers you have. It’s just it changes so much across these miles that you never get tired of it. You never get tired of the scenery, there’s going to be a section that is a challenge for your skill set and also fits your skill set perfectly. There’s going to be it’s just so diverse that it feels like there’s really something for everybody, and it’s just a spectacular emotion. Emotional journey too, as you watch, because you start in Moab and you climb up and over the lasalles, which is this massive mountain range. And then as you head towards Colorado, you continue to see the LaSalle and you watch them get smaller and smaller and smaller as you ride away. And the perspective of that of your perspective in this world of you just being this tiny dot traversing such a vast landscape, I think it offers what a lot of us who love the outdoors and love mountain biking is after, which is just feeling like we are a guest in this landscape, you know the Kokopelli Trail, they the Kokopelli owns that area, like that trail is their home. We’re just a guest for the day.
Jeff Barber 30:52
Yeah, yeah, that’s that’s a cool perspective. I’m curious about, you know this, it’s 137 mile trail or route that you’re doing. How do you pace yourself for a ride like this? Do you set a heart rate target that you want to keep the whole time? Or is it speed or something else? How do you come up with that?
Hannah Otto 31:12
Yeah, so my coach and I worked out power ranges for the whole day. And it is, it is a challenge because so you’ve got the first two hour climb, a small descent, and then an hour long climb. So you can pretty much call it three hour climb out of the gate, and you can set a very specific power target for that climb. So we did that. And then there’s a 30 ish mile flat section in the second half, which, again, you can really get on top of the pedals, and you can set a power target for that. The stuff in between is quite undulating and very burly, where it’s a couple hard pedal strokes to to make it up this rock, and then, you know, coast for five seconds, and then push hard for and so that becomes very challenging to set numbers, and that’s where I think a lot of experience does come in. Of you can’t look at your power because, I mean, you can, but it’s just fluctuating so much, your heart rate is also fluctuating and pretty delayed because of those spikes, and so you’re really relying on a feeling, and that’s again, where I’m so thankful for that first attempt, because the feeling that I would have felt like was satisfactory. Of this is as hard as I can sustain. You know, in these type of things you forecast, if I feel this way now, how will I feel in an hour? And with that type of forecasting, I would have been satisfied with the pace, but watching the wind, watching the time slip away and the elements, I knew, if I wanted any chance, I had to put all of that aside and go for it. And because of that, I pushed myself, not only in the elements but physically, with power numbers further than I ever would have before. And that gave me the confidence in attempt to to say, Well, I did these numbers when I had to right. So that means I can do them anytime, and so I was able to set, actually, a little bit faster pace even in the second attempt.
Jeff Barber 33:30
Yeah, wow, that’s awesome. Yeah. I mean, a lot of mountain bikers, we don’t use power. I mean, obviously athletes do, but yeah, that’s that makes a good case for like, maybe more of a should, like, I don’t know, I’m curious now to give it a try.
Hannah Otto 33:45
Yeah, it’s, for sure, a very interesting I think it’s important, you know, to start out, like I said, on that three hour climb with a pretty good understanding of where you want to be, because it is so straightforward. You’re going to be climbing this for the next three hours. But after that, you really just have to settle into your own, your own rhythm and your own you know, it’s pretty it’s pretty cool out there, like I, even though I had a film crew, they didn’t give me any support, including we didn’t speak to each other at all. From the first moment I started till the end, we did not communicate. And even though they got incredibly spectacular shots, most of that is either one via a drone, where maybe I see the drone, but I see no people. And then there’s a lot of places out there that they can’t access me. Only a bike can go there, not even a for not even their side by sides can get there. So there’s a lot of times where I am completely alone in this vast wilderness and all you hear is your own breathing. And it’s really
Jeff Barber 34:50
special. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to ask about that because, I mean, you start off the film talking about the film crew, and, you know, making it. Clear that, like, they’re not there to support you. And part of that is, is because of this, like rule, unofficial rule about individual time trials, that that you can’t receive any type of assistance. And I guess some people have interpreted that to mean you can’t have a film crew. So do you think, like, obviously, the film crew didn’t help you, and by nature of just filming, that doesn’t help a person. So do you think, like, these rules should be clarified? I mean, it’s hard, because it’s not like, this is a rule written down anywhere, anyway, but yeah, what do you what do you think is like, a good way to or a fair way to deal with that?
Hannah Otto 35:41
Yeah, it’s a really interesting conversation, you know, and you’re right. I do clarify in the film, mostly because I just want it to be very clear what I did and what I’m doing, and like I even say I’m not here to argue that, and I am fine with that. However people want to decide whether or not the film crew is like, like you said, it counts or it doesn’t count. If the film crew there, that’s everyone’s own decision, and that’s okay. But what I want to be clear is how I did do it, right? Like I said. I want it to be very clear that the film crew did not help me. They did not speak to me. They watched me take a wrong turn and let me go. You know, they were very much not helping and that’s how I want it. That’s a good thing. I want to be responsible for myself out there. Yeah,
Jeff Barber 36:36
yeah. And, I mean, that’s how it’s supposed to be, as far as I understand it, too. I mean, it’s kind of a journalistic approach in terms of, yeah, I mean, maybe reality TV doesn’t always like hew to that standard, but documentaries and things like that’s that’s generally the rule Anyway,
Hannah Otto 36:53
well, and it’s funny, because at the end of the day, it is. All of this is an honor system approach, right? Because also, if I don’t have a film crew, the only then, the only thing I have is the file at the end. And how does someone know that I didn’t have someone out there? You know, like, in some ways, the film crew offers a deeper insight to watching me do it. But like I said, at the end of the day, these things, they’re remote. They’re hard to monitor. And, you know, it’s a I think, that anyone who does do these loves this type of, if you want to call it racing, that they’re going to do it in a way that’s honorable and trustworthy. But for me, you know, if people want to argue the film crew, that’s fine. I want to share it with the world. And again, not because look at this really cool thing I did, but because there’s a lot of people out there who can’t ride the cocopeli. It’s they’ll never get to see that. And this is a way that I can share what I love with the world, with my family and friends. I can say, look at this incredibly beautiful landscape. I can we can allow other people to fall in love with this place when they’ve never even been there. We can tell a story that you know, these things like Rose Garden Hill, the giant hike, a bike in the middle. There is no way to describe that in words. It seems that someone can really, can really appreciate what that’s like. But when you see it visibly, it takes on life. And I that that is why I love having the film crew there to document it, because I think it brings people into the space, and also, I hope, brings people into the sport, you know, I think that even though we want to keep fkts Pure, you know, we want to create, we want to keep these things truly adventurous and raw, I think it’s also Important to captivate people and to let them know why it’s exciting that we’re out there doing this.
Jeff Barber 39:05
Yeah, yeah. Well, is there, is there, like, a person or an organization that that keeps official fkts, or, I feel like we’re really just talking about, like, what’s the public consensus? Like, we all agree, yes, that was the fkT, and that other one wasn’t like for Kokopelli specifically, though, is there a person or a group that is kind of like the last say on that that’s really
Hannah Otto 39:31
interesting? I you know, I think I’m still newer in this world, so I’d probably have to defer that question to somebody else who’s more of an authority. You know, from my perspective, it probably depends where you look right, like, is it the cute lab on Strava? Is it biketalking DotCom? Is it a different entity? You know, I think you see it more with the longer ones for sure, like there was such big debate overlay. Trails, Arizona Trail and Lachlan tour divide, right? Like those are the ones that we really see get scrutinized. But I know for me, I’m really thankful that they had the crew there, because I’ve never done the tour divide, and I can’t quantify what that’s like until I see Lachlan footage of it.
Jeff Barber 40:22
Yeah, yeah, same, right? I mean, we love all of us. I think love watching that stuff. And so, yeah, it does seem silly to gatekeep and be like, No, you can’t do that because it’s against some rule that’s not written anywhere. And yeah, I you know, as far as I know, for cocopellies, I don’t think there’s a central organization that that keeps those records. And, yeah, it depends, you know, tour divide, that’s, that’s, like, its own race, like, where they, you know, there is an organizer that’s sort of in charge, and so they kind of get the last say. But then, yeah, I was looking at laels attempt, you know, she’s trying to ride around the world right now, yeah, yeah. And, and there’s like, a Guinness Book of World Records, record for that. And it’s like Guinness is the authority on around the world. Oh, wow, yeah, but, but not right? But why not tour divide? I don’t know. So I guess it, it really just depends on which one you are, I think because I don’t know that anybody even wants to get involved in that, you know, like, arbitrate these disputes about, like, oh, well, he cheated, or, you know, he did this thing that shouldn’t count. And like, my goodness, I don’t, I think just crowdsourcing, it’s probably the way it’s going to work out forevermore, where we all just are kind of like, yeah, do most people agree that that that was the fastest? Yeah, so interesting,
Hannah Otto 41:48
well, and I think the current fkT holders on the cocopeli, yeah, current and past, I should say, have documented it. You know, I’ve watched Kate’s film and Kurt’s film and Pete’s film, so it seems potentially more normalized for that route. But again, I’m sure there’s someone who would debate that as well. So that’s okay. I mean, I think, I think again, because this sport is about the purity of the sport and the rawness of the sport most of us also, you know, that argument is just like, that’s fine. I’m not here to stake some claim in history. I’m just here to push myself and see what I can do. And again, watching all of the videos. Even back to, you know, Rebecca rush, I believe it was 2013 septic, the first, fastest known time on the CoCo Peli. That was her overarching theme as well. I’m out here to see how far I can go. And I think that’s a really common thread between all of us who love attempting these type of efforts.
Jeff Barber 42:57
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, so in your video, and then also, actually earlier in this conversation, you were saying how you had to embrace the idea that not everything is going to go perfectly. And you kind of earlier contrasted that to like racing, like World Cup racing, where everything does kind of have to go perfectly. And so I’m wondering, I guess in both cases, like, does luck play a role in mountain bike racing and like, in terms of where you finish on the podium, or is it, or is it really come down to skill and fitness? Like, what’s the mix between luck versus skill and fitness on any event, given competition?
Hannah Otto 43:38
Yeah, I think there can be an element of luck, for sure, especially when it comes to potentially mechanicals and things like that. Like, there are things that you can do to mitigate those. Like, Well, were you running the right choices? Did you have the right tire pressure? Did you check your bolts? You know, these are things that, of course, we do. But there’s also, like the grass was hiding the rock and no one could see it, or I was riding someone’s wheel, and all of a sudden they moved and I ran straight into the thing, or someone crashed in front of me, and what was, you know, I had to crash into them too. You know, there’s, there are. There is an element of luck with those type of things. For me with racing, an interesting thing is, is tactics, right? Is a lot of the time since we’re racing each other and the goal is to win, we aren’t always racing the clock. So there are times in these races where we’re not going, quote, unquote, as fast as we can. Because part of beating the competition is maybe easing up, maybe looking around, maybe planning, maybe easing up because you’re about to go really, really hard, you know, or maybe it’s, I don’t want them to be able to draft off me in the flat section, so I’m going to win. Over pace it on this first climb. You know, there’s a lot of tactical elements involved, because you’re racing other people, and that’s what it takes to win. And I love that. I’m a racer at heart. I love that competition. That’s my first love. But what I love about these fkts as well, is, since there is no one else. There are no tactics. And instead, I get to pursue this as truly the fastest that I can ride the trail. And that means there is no reason that every single pedal stroke I do shouldn’t be the fastest that I can make that single pedal stroke, and that’s why I think a lot of the times these fkts are the purest form of the sport, because it’s just you and the trail and the elements, and there is nothing and nobody in your way, and you can’t blame your success or failure on anybody but yourself. And I think that that is something really unique about these efforts that we don’t see in racing.
Jeff Barber 46:12
Yeah, yeah, you make a really good case for Yeah, the fkT being really one of the most pure forms of mountain bike racing. While we’re on the topic of race strategy, I have a question. I’ve always wondered about racing mountain bikes at the professional level. Is it bad form to prevent somebody from passing you like, do you block people out? Because I’ve been hearing that like, you know, at the local level, or, like, high school especially, like, that’s frowned upon. But I’m wondering, what, what? How did the pros see it?
Hannah Otto 46:46
Yeah, man, this is a tough question, and if you ask 10 different people, you might get 10 slightly different answers. Okay, I mean, I guess for the average person, I would say, like in high school racing and amateur racing, please let somebody pass, you know, like we’re trying to encourage improvement, and if somebody’s held up throughout a race, they don’t get to see how much they’ve improved or how fast they can go, and that’s a bummer in professional racing, this is our job, and it’s Our job to try to win, right? And there’s money online, and for a lot of us, it’s a livelihood that’s on the line in these events. And so I think with that comes a more cutthroat mentality, and it should be, because we are, in theory, should be the highest level of the sport. And so in my personal opinion, you shouldn’t be blocking somebody on the trail, like, if somebody, you know, if it’s a fire road, and somebody comes by my right and there’s plenty of room to pass, I shouldn’t be moving over to prevent them from crossing right. That, to me, is poor form. And if you do that, you’re going to get called out, and you’re going to be known for that in the group. If it’s a single track trail, and we’re descending and somebody comes up on you and says, Hey, I want to pass at the professional level. I don’t think it’s your job to stop and let
Jeff Barber 48:17
them go right, right? Because it’s going to slow you down potentially, or maybe, maybe you’re a faster climber, and you’re like, hey, I need to be in position, because I know we got a climb coming up, and I’m just going to pass you right back
Hannah Otto 48:29
precisely. It is the person who is behind. It’s their job to execute the pass. You shouldn’t prevent them from passing, but you don’t have to alter your forward motion in order to let it happen. If that makes sense,
Jeff Barber 48:44
gotcha, yeah, right, that does make sense, right? As long as it’s not slowing you down, it’s the nice thing to do, but, but hey, yeah, competition is competition, especially at your level, interesting,
Hannah Otto 48:56
and you see people make full strategies around that. So it’s pretty well known that that is the unspoken thing as to what’ll happen. Like at sea otter at the start of the year, you hear people, you know, it’s three minutes on the track, and then it’s 15 minutes in single track. And those three minutes on the track, it might as well be a three minute race. We are going full gas for that single track, and people talk about, I messed up in that start, and it cost me the whole
Jeff Barber 49:25
race. Yeah, because you can’t get around people on the single track, that’s that’s the issue.
Hannah Otto 49:30
Yep, exactly. And so it as a professional that is part of the race strategy is, and that’s part of what we’re looking at when we pre ride these courses, is, where are the places that I can pass and where are the places that I’m locked in, and how can I make sure I’m in a good spot for those
Jeff Barber 49:48
locations? Okay, interesting. Yeah, thanks for explaining that. Yeah, so this is your second big fkT in the past few years. So what? You think, like, do you enjoy it enough to attempt more?
Hannah Otto 50:02
Yes, yeah. I like, I mean, I think everyone listening to this probably can tell that I love it. Like I said, it’s, it’s a purity of sport thing for me. It’s a chance to see how far I can go. And you know what else too, that I think is worth mentioning is, as we con compare and contrast racing versus these time trial things is, are these two different entities? You know, is it okay? Hannah’s doing these two different things? And the answer is yes, but, and the but is, I think it helps me so much for my job as a racer as well. I think it, like I said, it shows me how far I can go and I can bring that over to the race course. It absolutely translates from one to the other. And this fkT on the Kokopelli Trail trail, without a shadow of doubt, made me a better racer as well. And so I think, you know, and I think that’s something, again, that people can relate to life, is the way that we move through this world and move through life a lot is about comparing and contrasting experiences, and that’s how we often, in our minds, subconsciously or not, decide if we can do something. Can I do this? Well, Have I done something similar to it? Before you know, how hard is this going to be? Well, I did this other thing that was similar. And yeah. And so as a racer, the more things that you’ve done, the more experiences you can pull from, and that’s one of the reasons that whether it’s fkts, whether it’s these crazy stage races, whether it’s bizarre challenges, for me, it’s really important to go out and to experience these crazy feats, because when it comes down to the start line. It all adds up to confidence for me, because I know I’ve done something harder, or I’ve done something similar, and that allows me to have a lot of confidence.
Jeff Barber 52:10
Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, yeah, do you is part of the strategy, you know, like, if I asked you, which fkT are you targeting next? Is part of the strategy to not put say it out loud, because that’s, you know, you want to be. You don’t want a bunch of people going out there and trying to, trying to attempt it at the same time, or, yeah, or is that? Is it set more by the production, whereas, you know, you’re doing this film and it’s going to come out, and you don’t want to, like, ruin the surprise, is part of, like, not saying that you’re gonna do fkT, part of strategy. I think
Hannah Otto 52:47
it’s all of the above, you know? I think it’s you don’t want to give away your fun ideas, right? Like with the whole enchilada, I was kind of standardizing that in a route. So it’s like, I wanted to keep that a secret. With the covapelli, it was the longest thing I had personally ever done. So it felt like maybe it would be a shock to hear my name associated with that for people, you know, so, so it’s a little bit of everything. It’s the surprise. It’s wanting to not spoil it, not have other people out there, you know, maybe taking it, it’s everything, you know, I think it’s, yeah, I think it’s, it’s, I don’t know, yeah, I’m, I’m, I have another one planned competitive cyclist, and I were already talking about it. We’re already starting to plan it. So funny, we had the premiere just two days ago, and as we wrapped up and we’re cleaning up. It was like, Oh, by the way, and I looked into this for the next one, it’s like, Oh, perfect. Okay, you know, already starting to work and plan together, yeah? But yeah, it’ll be a secret
Jeff Barber 53:53
for a little while. Cool. Well, what can you tell us that’s next for you? What’s, what’s the next race on your calendar for this summer and looking into the fall.
Hannah Otto 54:02
Yeah, the next race for me will be the Leadville 100 which is my favorite race. So I’m super excited to go back to Leadville to race that one again. And then, you know, I got a lot on the calendar, Leadville steamboat Sean again, I’m doing the whole lifetime Grand Prix. But the probably another notable one is I’ll be doing the marathon, World Marathon mountain bike world championship this year in September. So that’s definitely a big goal of mine as well.
Jeff Barber 54:32
Awesome. And where’s that one being held? Again,
Hannah Otto 54:35
that one’s actually in snowshoe, West Virginia. Yeah. Okay.
Jeff Barber 54:39
Awesome. Cool. Well, Hannah, thanks so much for taking the time to chat with us. Truly an inspiring fkT, and the film and yeah, just everything that you’re able to share. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much. This was really fun. Well, you can find a link to Hannah’s Kokopelli Trail. FkT. The film on the show notes, and we also have a link to her Instagram as well. So I’ve got this week, we’ll talk to you again next week. You.
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