Josh Whitmore is the founder of the MTB Skills Factory in Brevard, North Carolina. He’s a Level 4 certified mountain bike coach and he’s spent more than 25 years helping riders, from total beginners to professional racers, improve their skills and confidence on the trail. We’ll dig into what makes riders better: how to train your instincts, how to practice effectively, and what separates skill from fitness on the trail.
- What makes the best mountain bikers great? Is it line choice, body position, mental focus, or something else?
- How can riders recognize whether their biggest limitation is technical or mental?
- What does “failing forward” mean when it comes to learning new skills?
- What’s the biggest mistake riders make when they’re trying to practice skills?
- If someone only has an hour to practice each week, what’s the most effective way to use that time?
- What subtle habits separate a “pretty good” rider from someone who’s really dialed?
- How do you balance fitness and skill in your own training, and what should riders prioritize
- From a coach’s perspective, what’s actually happening when a rider hits that “flow” state?
- Is there a way to measure progress in skills that isn’t tied to race times or Strava segments
- From your perspective, what defines a professional mountain bike coach, and what should riders look for when choosing one?
- Is there any kind of certification or background that really matters, or is it more about experience and results?
- What’s one common myth about mountain bike skills you wish you could erase from every rider’s brain?
- What’s one small thing riders could do today that would immediately make them better?
An automated transcript is provided below.
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Transcript
Speaker 1 0:00
Hey everybody, welcome to the Singletracks podcast. I’m your host, Jeff Barber and today we’re talking with Josh Whitmore, founder of the MTB Skills Factory in Brevard, North Carolina. Josh is a level four certified mountain bike coach, and he spent more than 25 years helping riders from total beginners to professional racers improve their skills and confidence on the trail. But we’re not just going to talk about certifications and clinics today. We’re going to dig into what really makes riders better, how to train your instincts, how to practice effectively, and what separates skills from fitness on the trail. Josh, thanks for joining me.
Josh Whitmore 0:40
Excellent. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 0:43
So you’ve worked with riders of all levels. So I’m curious, when you think about the best mountain bikers that you’ve coached or written with, what makes them so great? Is it line choice, body position, mental focus, what? What is it that makes makes these riders different from the rest of us. Yeah. And so let me clarify. I guess when you’re thinking about, like, the best riders, like, are you talking racers, or, you know, World Cup down racers? Also a lot of us, I think, you know, we ride with, say we’re out in a group, and we’ve always got that one person in the group that everybody’s like, in awe of their skill, and it’s just like, oh, that’s a great writer. So what separates what makes people great riders in your experience?
Josh Whitmore 1:29
I generally consider six different categories of things that make good riders and the certainly, you know, our technical skills are a piece of that. So, you know, we’re talking about like, you know, riding skills and then biomechanic kind of body movement stuff. But you know, we all can recognize that, you know, perhaps there are other things at play too that may also influence our ability to perform. And great riders, you know, will master more of these. So some of those, I guess, those other ones are, you know, can be just physical fitness, you know, our ability to, there’s a certain level of fitness that we need to have, and strength to be able to perform specific, you know, strength based kind of maneuvers. So, you know, we that’s pretty easy to identify another one that’s pretty easy to identify a psychological factor. So you think about mindset resilience, like level of confidence, like, you know, those kinds of things. And you probably recognize that you know, sometimes, like a mental your mental state, you know, can affect your performance ability, right? But some other things that, you know, I think, come to mind too, or are really just stuff, like environmental factors. So thinking about the riders ability to handle different types of terrain or different conditions, you know, being really have a lot of like black loam dirt here in North Carolina and, you know, so when I go to, like, Moon Dust world and other parts of the country, you know, it’s like, suddenly, I’m not as good of a rider, right? Yeah, just takes me a little bit of time to, you know, adjust to those conditions. But so that, you know those kinds of things. And you know, another, another one could be equipment and the knowledge and ability for setup and, you know, fit and operation of, you know, just the equipment that really, I guess, leaves one more, which is a tactical approach. So the best riders are able to have really good strategy with their riding. So, and that could be a skill, kind of blends in the skill too. But I think, I think of like tactical strategy is like line choices, breaking zones, stuff like that, which could also not necessarily like how to break, but, you know, tactically kind of where to break. Or, you know, and or line choice could be the but also like, just in general, prep for for events, or for their approach towards riding, and how they approach getting better or the process of improvement. So I guess those six things are common ones that I would think about that all raised to the surface at some point or another to affect people’s ability.
Speaker 1 4:15
Yeah, yeah, you’re it sounds like there is, it’s a whole package that makes somebody a great rider, but it also sounds like you’re saying that maybe we should cut ourselves some slack when we’re comparing ourselves to other riders, right? Because, you know, we may be having a bad day on the bike because of stuff that happened before the ride, or it could be conditions. I find myself doing that a lot when I’m riding with someone and I’m like, man, they’re so good. And then then I start thinking, well, this is their local trail. They know where they’re going. This is my first time riding it. So, you know, is that important to kind of cut yourself some slack as well to say, like, you know, we are good riders. We just have things that we can work on.
Josh Whitmore 5:00
Cut yourself some slack, like having some grace with yourself. Being humble is and curious is, you know, good approach to all that, and yeah, certainly just kind of paying attention to the things, the different things that, I guess, limit your performance at different times, and trying to understand, you know, what’s boiling to the surface right now, that that is preventing that performance at the moment, but you can, you can imagine, you know, when you’re riding really well and really excited about it, and that, you know all of those things are, you know, kind of in tune and are taken care of at the moment.
Speaker 1 5:40
Well, how do you separate that, like, as a rider, separate the difference between maybe a technical limitation where, like, you just don’t have that skill or that fitness, versus what is mental or temporary in a situation?
Josh Whitmore 5:57
Self awareness is a big part of that. You know, I believe a good coach can also sense those things. You know, through working with 1000s of people, I feel like I’m pretty intuitive and empathetic about understanding where, being able to identify what people are feeling and what they’re and how they’re performing, and then understanding, you know, which, if it’s a, if it’s more of a mental approach of what you know that that’s that’s like the, I guess, boiling to the surface more at the moment. And then you can customize the lesson towards, you know, working with those factors more than maybe, you know, X, Y and Z, you know, steps of how to do something so but I think for discovering that yourself, it’s really just paying attention to, you know, how you’re feeling and what’s going on in your head, what voices are talking to you at the moment. That’s a big one. You know, if you’re if the voices in your head are saying, like, Hey, this is fun, and I’m awesome, and this is a great day, and, you know, or versus like, like, I’m scared, or I don’t want to be here. Or, you know, why are those other, all these other people, faster than me? Or why can’t I do this? Or, you know, like, paying attention to those, to those voices, you know, tell you a lot about, you know, what’s going on. Or maybe the voice is saying, like, I just can’t figure this out. Maybe you don’t feel afraid or anxious or anything like that, but you’re just like, confused, or you feel stuck. And then those kinds of feelings might be more lend towards, like, oh, well, maybe I need to figure out more of the kind of the technical skill aspect of this then, then to, like, change my mindset.
Speaker 1 7:40
Interesting. Well, you’ve talked about this idea of failing forward, so I’m curious, what does that mean when it comes to learning new skills on a mountain bike?
Josh Whitmore 7:51
I just learned that concept from there’s a book author John Maxwell that wrote a book called failing forward, turning mistakes into stepping stones for success. And basically, the idea of that, you know, in any good, long process of improvement, you’re not going to have all successes. There will be times when you it’s not that, you know there, it’s not going to go well, or it’s going you might make a mistake, or it’s not going to you can’t just do it automatically. And so there’s a huge process of, I guess, looking at that as an opportunity for for improvement, rather than letting that defeat you to stop. So, you know, it’s like, okay, I want to do whatever maneuver there is, you know, if, like, if I just can’t do it, or even if I’m dedicated to a process of improving and step wise, you know, changing, like, if it’s if I’m finding difficulties or having small little failures, that’s not, that’s not grounds to just quit. It’s, it’s sort of like, Oh, here’s an opportunity here to, like, to treat that as, like, you know, fail forward. Okay, well, great. I What did I learn from not being able to do it or failing at this? And how can that inform me the next time that I do it or down the road? So that’s kind of the concept of failing forward.
Speaker 1 9:23
Have you gotten to a point where you’re, like, not just comfortable with failing, but like, like, do you embrace it in terms of, like, Wow, awesome. Like, I failed, so I get to learn something from it. Or is that, is that like a work in progress for you?
Josh Whitmore 9:40
We need a mix of both. We need we need positive reinforcement of things that are going well, and we need to celebrate our small successes and be really pumped about that when it happens, and being able to identify those things and not just be. Be focusing on negative. You know, the power of reinforcing what you’re doing that’s going well leads to, I mean, in the in the science world, it’s exercise, you know, kind of science world, the, you know, the positive reinforcement is important in our skill development as a rider, and not just focusing on negatives and so, so I say there’s a mix of both, really, with that, but, but I guess the again, it’s kind of come back, like treating the the failures as potential opportunities for improvement, and thinking those as a positive things that are like, you know, if you’re curious about them, and can think about what can you learn from them.
Jeff Barber 10:45
And I imagine, for most of us, I mean, we recognize that and understand it. And though it may not be immediate, like you crash, and you’re like, Yes, I crashed. I learned something, you know, but it comes later, right? Like, maybe the next day. You’re like, okay, I guess that was good that, you know, I had that opportunity to learn something and not, it’s not gonna happen again. So that’s, that’s a good way to look at it, yeah. So a lot of us, you know, when it comes to mountain bike skills, we know what to do. You know, we’ve heard things from instructors, coaches like yourself, or, you know, seeing videos on YouTube with tips about, you know, looking ahead, staying low, waiting the pedals. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t struggle to put it all together on the trail, even though we know what we’re supposed to do. So I’m curious what’s the biggest mistake you see riders make when they’re trying to practice these skills?
Josh Whitmore 11:45
I’d say what maybe one of the biggest ones is, is really just trying to do the complicated thing that they want to do. And just so I think that a lot of video How to content is, is guilty of this that you know, that they use a lot of like video content, of of how to do, like these advanced things that really do a good job, actually, of like breaking it down into steps, okay, you know, here all the components of like this complicated thing. So then I think, what you know, people try to do then is like, Okay, well, I’m going to go try to do this complicated thing, and if I I’m going to start into doing it, and if it doesn’t work, then I’m just going to start again and try again, as opposed to, how can I develop If I can’t, if I can’t just do those things. How can I develop the skills or the foundation or that, or the more of the elemental pieces of it before I actually put them together into doing this hard, complicated thing? Okay, so you maybe the answer is not just trying to keep trying to do it over and over again? Maybe the answer is, I need to go do something else that teaches me the the elemental pieces of this in a different way that is maybe more simple, so that when I come back to try to apply it for this hard, complicated thing, I’ve already developed some of the fundamental or elemental pieces of it.
Jeff Barber 13:20
So, so an example maybe, so what if, I mean, one thing that people are trying to learn all the time, it seems, is how to wheelie. And so there’s probably, you know, three or four things, maybe more that you need to do to, like, get up into a proper wheelie and to hold it. And so are you saying, like, instead of just trying to, you know, do 1234, at once. You need to do one by itself and two by itself, and then eventually you’re able to put it all together. Is that kind of how it works?
Josh Whitmore 13:50
I like that. That analogy is good. One that the, yeah, we think about like, you know, what are the, what are the fundamental or elemental pieces of doing a wheelie? And then how can I break some of those apart into different pieces, and then pull that piece out and work on just that piece, and then get better at that one piece, and when I break it into these smaller things, then I can, you know, it’s easier to achieve improvement. And, you know, I’m able to focus on kind of one thing, you know, you think about, like, maybe another example could be cornering in general, that there’s a lot that goes into cornering, right? And so if you’re trying to concentrate on the 10 different aspects of cornering, then, you know, your ability to focus on any one of those things is, is kind of goes out the door, right? And so, you know, okay, well, but if I just take one, one piece of it, you know. Let’s focus on our lean angle versus the, you know, honor the how supportive the berm is, or something right, or rotation, or whatever it is, you know. Then, then we can kind of pull that out, work on it, and then when we plug it back into the puzzle in the, you know, then it everything works better, I guess it. Analogy I can have with that is like, you know, if you want to upgrade your bike, you can change the tires, and all you’ve done is improve the tires for the conditions you’re going to ride in, and but it makes the whole bike ride better when you do it right. So it’s kind of the same thing when, when we break apart some of those more complicated things into individual elements, that we can improve those individual elements and put them together. And a lot of times, like, they’re built on top each other too. Like building blocks, you think about like a pyramid built of blocks. You know, we have to have a good, a strong foundation and base, and then, you know, build that step wise. So, you know, I can’t put the top piece on the pyramid until I have something to put it on, right, right? There’s a couple of the ways I think about that.
Jeff Barber 15:45
Yeah, that’s a good way to put it. So based on this and like with this in mind, do you think should riders be doing these structured drills or practicing skills in a parking lot or a field, or is it better to practice on the trail? I think for most of us, we would prefer. We want you to say that we can just go to the trail and practice this stuff. But what’s what’s like the real answer?
Josh Whitmore 16:11
Well, I think both of those can work fine. The concept we’re working with here in coaching, or you’re asking about, is, is relationship between challenge of terrain, and then my ability to execute a skill. So in order to maximize my ability to experiment with new things, I need to turn down the challenge of the terrain to a point where I’ve got some margin of error, that I’ve got some ability to try new things. So that might mean that I need to turn the the challenge of the terrain all the way down to a flat parking lot or a grass field, low consequence, like I’ve removed, you know, a lot of that challenge, and then I can, at that point, I can really concentrate on the movement patterns or acquiring these new things that I’m working on, because I’m not distracted so much on the trail. But you know that that could also mean, you know, riding a blue trail instead of a black trail, you know, like a, yeah, like, we’re gonna do this thing on this blue flow trail instead of that, you know, like, black trail. So it’s kind of relative to the skill and what, yeah, how much yeah, challenge is coming from the terrain, but we’ve, but in general, yeah, we’ve got to reduce the challenge of the terrain enough to be able to be adjustable, to learn new things.
Jeff Barber 17:36
I reminds me too, of like, like testing, or, you know, kind of like this scientific process of removing a lot of the variables and really, like narrowing down on the thing you’re trying to do. And sounds like, in some cases, that means doing it in a parking lot or a field or somewhere, but in other cases, you know, you can do it, but dialing the challenge down to, I mean, for me, a green trail, like tylen down to it green, and practicing there that, I think that makes a lot of sense, and sounds more fun, too, than doing it in a parking lot, which I think a lot of people dread.
Josh Whitmore 18:09
I agree, right. I mean, that should be one of the primary, you know, goals of riding, right? Is more fun, you know, we want to have fun more riding, right? So, so we, we also have the other aspect of it, of, you know, the terrain challenge, and it’s sort of the level of arousal in the in the rider of, you know, there’s a sweet spot of, if it’s boring, you know, so if you spend too much time in a grass field or a parking lot, then, like, the rider can get bored with doing that, right? Okay? And then their, their level of being able to learn new things, or being invested in they’re trying to learn new things, like, starts to decrease right? On the other end of the spectrum, right, is, like, you know, if we ride stuff that’s too hard for us, then our level arousal is too high. You know, we’re in kind of survival mode, and we’re panicking, you know, like, a lot of times we’re not able to, like, you know, we’re just survival mode. So that’s like, that’s too high. So there’s a sweet spot in there where we need to be able to have the right level of arousal to be also learn how to do stuff. Now, I’d say like, you know, a good coach can, can be adaptable to understanding, you know what, you know, what that level of challenges for the rider, what’s going to be be able to read that in the rider and then understand what, what kind of terrain is going to match that, that level of arousal. And then they’re, they’re, you know, dial it down enough for them be able to, like, try new things, and be able to, you know, sometimes teach in the glass in the grass classroom, as we say, you know, but maybe just spend, you know, the minimum amount of time we need there before we take it on the trail. You know, there’s, there’s certainly coaches that will and programs out there that spend maybe the majority of their time in in big, open areas and grass fields with like, with like, kind of mobile props and stuff like that and and that. Yes, I would say is, like, there’s pros and cons to that in the way that you know, and it’s very repeatable. So you could take that same setup to a to a city park in the middle of a big city, or or you could go from one location to another, if you’re kind of in a traveling outfit, and then kind of have a repeatable product. And but I’d see over and over again that riders will come to us after doing one of those kind of, like grass field oriented skills clinics, and then basically that they’ve been introduced to a lot of things in this grass field. And then they they come to us and complain that they they have trouble putting it together on the trail now, and that they need help with. Okay, I sort of understand, you know, these body movements, or whatever the skills were that we were introduced to, but, and with some some props and that sort of thing. But like, how, how do I do it on the trail? When do I do it? How much do I do it on real trail features? You know, it’s kind of a next step that I see a lot of those riders taking.
Jeff Barber 21:01
Interesting. Well, after someone does, you know, a class or a clinic with you or your instructors, how much practice is involved? I imagine, you know, there’s homework and there’s things you’re going to be doing kind of on your own afterwards. So are we talking like an hour a week or, I imagine, too, it depends on how quickly you’re trying to progress and what your goals are. But, but what’s your kind of general advice for people in terms of how much time they need to put into skills work?
Josh Whitmore 21:33
Yeah, I think how much time is really dependent on what their goals are, and then how, how much time they have and then…
Jeff Barber 21:41
But nobody has time to practice skills, right? If I have time I want to go ride trails and just have fun. So, yeah, what’s a number? What’s, what’s like, the minimum? You want a number? Yeah, what’s the minimum I have to do?
Josh Whitmore 21:53
Um, goodness, that’s tough to tough to know. I’d say, I’d say, like, weekly in some form or fashion, is, is fun, and, you know, even, even on that trail ride, you know, if you have, if you could dedicate a portion of your just fun trail ride, if you’re riding on your own, or, like, a piece of a downhill, even if you’re that kind of thing is, like, you know, think a little bit about having some purpose for using, using the train that you’re Riding in, so that maybe you know, you can zone out and have your your fun ride. But then maybe pick a specific downhill or something that, or a section of trail that you or a technical climb, or something that you can like, Okay, I’m going to focus now on this specific thing. And yeah, you’re right. We do give homework quite a lot. So, you know, specifically from private lessons, we we do mostly private lessons, and then we have, we do, we do a fair amount of group clinics too, but small group, sort of max of six, with one, one coach, and mostly trail oriented kind of group clinics, but, but, but from this private lessons, you were able to kind of prescribe the homework, and then also, so, hey, when you hear the things you need to work on on your own, next or keep, you know the thing that we did, you know, during our lesson? You know, here’s a video of it like, Do this, do this thing on your own. And when you feel like you have reached a plateau with it, or are bored with it, you know, then come back for new assignments, okay? Or send us video of you doing it. And you know, we’ll let you know if you if we’ve seen improvement,
Jeff Barber 23:35
We’ll let you know if you can move on.
Josh Whitmore 23:39
Haha yeah. So I don’t know if there’s a set number. I know you want a number,
Jeff Barber 23:43
No, that’s, that’s fair. I mean, right? Obviously it’s going to depend on, on who you are and where your skills are and what your goals are, for sure, but it’s more than zero, right? I mean, it’s, it’s not like you can just go out and, like, Okay, I’ve got the knowledge, you know, I went to this, clinic, or, you know, this private lesson. And now I know everything. It’s not that there is, there is time involved that you dedicate to that.
Josh Whitmore 24:10
Or at least that, you know, I we see in every clinic and every private lesson, we see an immediate step up in ability. And, you know, sometimes, depending on the rider that you know, if they’re a real advanced rider, like, you know, some of the pro racers that I work with, you know, we’re like, we’re looking for, like, really tiny little things that they’re improving. And that’s kind of stressful as a coach, because oftentimes it feels more awkward for them to do something different than it you…
Jeff Barber 24:33
And you don’t want to mess them up. You’re like, you’re very good already, and you don’t want to…
Josh Whitmore 24:38
Yeah you know, versus like, let’s say more beginner riders. They’re just like this dry sponge that needs everything. And then, you know, in the course of a two or three hour thing, like, they can, they can make it a huge improvement in their ability. And it’s just that they’re capable. People are capable athletes, but they just don’t know what to do, or they just, they just haven’t, you know, it’s like, you can tell what to do, and then they just do it. It’s like. Oh, wow. This feels better than me trying to figure it out on my own, like, right away. So, so, yeah, so I guess, yeah, it just kind of depends on the level of rider too, and then how invested you are in it. Like, if you want to ride your bike and don’t want to work on skills like, go ride your bike and don’t work on skills like, if that’s fun and you are happy with what you’re doing, and like, I think that’s what’s amazing about the bike in general, is that we can, we can enjoy it on any level we want. Like, it’s it doesn’t make me a better rider than you or anyone else, or, you know, compared to anyone else, if I enjoy it a different way than you enjoy it. You know, some people that like love being intentional with their skill acquisition or their fitness acquisition, or whatever it is, and get really detail oriented with it. And other people are just like, I man, this is like, my release. I don’t, I don’t want, I don’t need all that, you know, I just want to, I just want to go ride my bike. And, yeah, it’s fine to experience the bike however you like to experience it. You know, as long you know it’s, as long as it’s a positive thing for you.
Jeff Barber 26:04
So, right, yeah, yeah, that’s super helpful, I think, for a lot of people to know that there are those options, and we all have different approaches to it. So you know, you mentioned working with more advanced riders. I’m curious what are some subtle habits or characteristics that separate someone who’s, like a pretty good rider, from someone who’s who’s really, truly dialed?
Josh Whitmore 26:29
I think we’ve talked a little bit about some of these already. I think that, you know, the if I, if I had to, you know, kind of like, correlate the traits that I see, you know, really good riders have is that, you know, I think that they in general, they’re with their mindset. They’re pretty resilient and adaptable and humble. So they do things like celebrate small wins and improvements, generally, kind of a positive mindset. They look for opportunities to improve. They’re humble in their ability, and are always curious about how they’re doing stuff or how they can get better. They are hungry to Yeah, for improvement, and they’re hungry for the process of being dedicated to a process like that. They, you know, are Yeah, trying to, yeah. I guess, like, dedicated to that process is a good way to think about it.
Jeff Barber 27:36
And being intentional, intentional, like you said, yeah, yeah. That makes sense, that that there are people that are very good rider, and that may be just because they write a lot and they’ve kind of picked things up over time, versus maybe, if you’re more intentional about it, you’re going to end up over time maybe at a different level with that, which is interesting.
Josh Whitmore 27:58
That really comes back to the why, you know? Like, I, you know, one of the things I like to connect with people with a little bit when I’m working with them, is sort of, like, why are you doing this? Like, why are you, why are you riding a bike? Like, what you know? What is your interest in this? And it’s you and that it can inform you know what our goals are and our outcomes, and what our processes, right, it’s like, so, yeah, that’s just kind of coming back to the why you know that can help us to understand you. Okay, well, what, what kind of a process do we want to be dedicated to? Or not.
Jeff Barber 28:36
In that process you work with, is there kind of a wide range of the answer to that question of the why? I mean, are a lot of people there because they’re, they want to race, and they just want to get faster, and, you know, get better or or they’re also people, I imagine there are also people that just want to get better so they can enjoy biking more. So, yeah, what do you what do you see in terms of people’s whys?
Josh Whitmore 29:04
We have a, I’d say, a wide range of of those, wise, like, from, hey, I’m, I’m just getting started for my first mountain bike rides, and I want to take a lesson to learn it, right? You know, you think about, like, you know, learning skiing or snowboarding or something like, it’s pretty universally recognized. You start with the lesson, right? It’s like, so they’re like, so they’re like, Okay, I want to start with the lesson, you know. And then on the other end of spectrum, I’ve got pro racers, who are, you know, are like, Hey, man, whatever you got, like, I’m trying to get faster, like, you know, I need, you know, like, milliseconds, right? You know, anything like, what do you got, you know? But I’d say that the that’s kind of a bell curve, you know, on either end of the of the spectrum. And then, you know, in the middle of that bell curve where we see most of our, of our Whys tend to be folks that are, they just feel stuck. So think about, you know, that sort of rider that’s been riding for a little while, or maybe even for several years, and they, they’re mostly the. Like all of us, did we, you know, we learned how to ride bikes, but you got on a bike and you started riding it, and you just sort of intuitively figured out a lot of stuff. Maybe you got some tips from friends, you know, that kind of thing. But then, you know, there, and they’ve gotten to a point where they, well, at the beginning, you know, they probably saw like an improvement curve in their ability, and they’re psyched about that. And they were like, Man, I’m getting better. This is awesome. And and then they their ability level kind of plateaus out, like they feel kind of stuck in their in their ability. And I think as humans in general, like innately, we we enjoy learning and getting better at things. I think that that’s a common human trait for most people, I think. And so then, yeah, if they’re starting to get a little bored with their riding, or, or they maybe they are curious about opening up new terrain to them. So, you know, a big one around here in Brevard, right? Is like, you know, we had for, I mean, since I started riding in the late 80s, you know, we had Pisgah, right? And physicals, old, gnarly hiking trails. And then it was in the last, like, I don’t know, eight or nine years or something, there started to be places that had good jumps. And so, you know, all the old Pisgah riders around here were like, how do you ride a jump? You know, it’s like, they didn’t come from BMX or anything like that. And so then, you know, I could, I have, you know, have had a that’s a common thing around here is, like, you know, riders that have maybe even been riding for 2030, years, but are now like, like, I want to go to the bike park and ride these, like, bike park specific things. And there’s jumps and berms and like, and I just don’t know how to do that. So maybe they just want to open up new terrain. So these are some of the wise and then I also have like, riders that just want to keep doing it for health and fitness and enjoyment. Like, I have one regular client that’s in his late 80s that is just like, he’s still learning, you know, and how to be a better mountain biker. And he wants to, you know, be able to be more, enjoy more, and keep his, you know, keep doing it. And so, you know, the strategy with him is a lot of like, you know, how can we, how can he be efficient with the the his strength ability and you know, that he has, and his mobility that he has, and be safe, you know, or him to, like, crash and hurt himself and his biking career, right?
Jeff Barber 32:15
So wide range, it’s a huge, huge variety, for sure, and a lot some that I hadn’t even thought of, but maybe kind of in the back of my mind, the jumps thing certainly resonates with me, right? Like been riding a long time, and technical trails don’t scare me at all, but, but jumps do because I don’t. I just don’t have a lot of that near me. But, you know, it is fun to be able to do that stuff when you travel. So, yeah, great example.
Josh Whitmore 32:42
You know, we’ll see the opposite of that too, with some of the racer kids. And so I feel like, you know, I’ve got youth riders, I work with that. Or maybe they, they came from doing more like jumping world, like dirt jumping stuff, or they, that was just what they got good at first. That was their hook into the sport BMX, or maybe just mountain bike jumping or whatever at the bike park. And then now they’re getting more into, like, let’s say enduro racing or downhill racing in general. And then they’re, they’re coming to us to be like, Hey, I’m, I haven’t spent as much time on the tech stuff or so I now I need to figure out to be a better rounded racer, rather than just being able to throw sick tricks on the jumps. You know, it’s like, I need to figure out how to ride this tech stuff. So what do you got? Yeah, so that’s another I see that come in the other direction as well.
Jeff Barber 33:29
Yeah, that’s great. Well, so a lot of mountain bikers, myself included, tend to think, and we rely a little bit on just pedaling our way out of sketchy situations, or, you know, compensating for a lack of skills through fitness. So I’m curious, how do you balance that fitness and skill in your own training and and how should riders prioritize that or recognize maybe, when there’s sort of an imbalance between the two?
Josh Whitmore 33:58
Yeah, I think to a certain extent, you can overcome some skill efficiency with strength and fitness. So you can so that that is that is true seed riders that you know you know, you kind of, like the classic example of, like, you know, kind of just, like, muscle through things, rather than finesse their way through it.
Jeff Barber 34:25
Yeah, like a technical climb. You know, if I’ve got the power, I can just get over a lot of stuff, but maybe there’s a better way to do it.
Josh Whitmore 34:34
Yeah, we think about, you know, for that example, like technical climbing that, you know, that rider that’s putting a lot of their kind of muscle into it, you’d say, like, you know, it’s like, maybe they’re able to do that feature, but are they able to do the whole trail efficiently? You know, are they gonna, like, run out of energy?
Jeff Barber 34:57
Yeah, yeah. Then you got nothing for the descent that. It’s, I’ve been guilty of that for sure, right?
Josh Whitmore 35:03
Or they it’s so much of, you know, kind of like we think about in the strength training world, you only think about percentage of one rep max. You know, you do a lot of prescribing strength training, you know, what weights, you know, best percentage of one rep max, or percentage of five Rep Max, I think. But okay, let’s say that, like to do that tech climbing feature. You know you’re doing it’s a max effort for you, like, it’s a very high percentage of your one rep max. And then, you know, are you going to be able to do 10 of those right in a row, or are you gonna have to stop and rest in between each one? And you know, maybe if you’re more efficient with your skill application, then you could use less energy, and you could do more of them, or go faster or or make it look more elegant, depends on what your goal outcome is, right and but I think like you know, prescribing, you know, workouts or prescribing skills training to athletes, or to people in general, riders in general, it’s, you know, it comes back again to, like, what their goals are. And then the you know, you know, are they? Are they trying to, you know, go uphill, like the whole uphill, you know, quickly, like, are they, like, a cross country racer, or they’re going for that kom climb, or whatever it is, you know, are they trying to, I don’t know, look more, it’s easy on further, yes, city, I don’t know, you know, whatever it is, or just be able to handle more terrain like I am, don’t want to. So, yeah, so I think it comes back to goals again. Yeah, custom, custom for each person.
Jeff Barber 36:43
So, right, right, yeah. And so I think, I guess recognizing that too, you know, as a as a coach, as an instructor, you’re able to kind of tailor what you’re doing and recognize kind of where people’s limitation is, whether it’s on the skill side or the fitness side. I mean, to me, they’re they’re so related, you know, like, when I’m tired, my skills are suffering, and, you know, that’s when I start to make mistakes, and so, so for me, I guess maybe a lot of times I try to compensate for that. I’m like, well, may I just need to be more fit, and then, you know, I’m going to ride better. But, but I think it seems like also, what I hear from folks is that by having those skills, you are more efficient when you’re writing, and you’re able to eke out more gains even with your current fitness. I mean, is that? Is that fair to say?
Josh Whitmore 37:38
Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. The The analogy I like to use is that you’re it’s kind of like thinking about your body like a hybrid car. So there, there are times when you’re using a lot of battery juice, and then there are times when you’re regenerating the battery. And so if, if you can improve your efficiency through skill, then, so that you don’t, you’re not using as much battery drain, you know, at any for any given feature, right? Then your overall battery level is going to be higher. And then, more importantly, you know, can you improve your skill ability to the point where you can, like, kind of regenerate that battery and add to it, so that what ends up happening is that if you can do that, then, then the places that you need it the most, you have more ability for right?
So the places that are the most challenging, physically and skill wise, for you, you’ve just got a better battery for it. So you think about like, example that could be, well, I was, I was working with this myself, even just on a downhill race. That was like, there’s like, the old man category on the pro course is a good category to race in, because we, we turn ticket to take care of each other, but we got to ride the pro course, right? You know, it’s right, right? It’s hard so that, you know this, this one feature that I was working on was like, I could ride it by itself, but I was not sure, you know, so by itself, if I was, like, rested and started above it, session it, yeah, I feel like I could do it kind of like 10 out of 10 times, like that, yeah, but put it in the middle of a race, run most of the way down the track. I’m gonna get there tired, right? And I did not feel like I was able to do that 10 out of 10 times. The consequences of screwing it up were, like, bad. Big road gap. Big road gap. Okay, so, so, so I made the decision. And, you know, even though I could ride it by itself, like during the race run, it did not make sense for me to do so I, like, I rode around it. So then, you know, all kinds of things come into play with that ego and whatever, but, but that, but that’s an example of, you know, if I, if I was able to. To, you know, be more efficient, or have better skills to be more efficient or save more battery on the way down. Yeah, you know, then when I got to that feature, you know, maybe I would have the battery quote to be able to do that thing, right? So, yeah, that’s an example of that.
Jeff Barber 40:17
Yeah, that’s a great example. So let’s talk about flow, and I hopefully everybody listening here is a mountain biker, and they know what we’re talking about. We’re talking about flow, but it’s, you know, it’s that it’s that magical feeling when everything just clicks on a ride, and that’s the thing we’re always looking for. And, you know, we’re chasing that like I know, for me every single ride, that’s that’s why I’m there, is to get to that. So I’m curious, from a coach’s perspective, what’s actually happening when a rider hits that that flow state?
Josh Whitmore 40:52
Yeah, it’s fascinating. I’m so my master’s degree in outdoor education and sort of psychology of recreation. Most of my focus for my own research and stuff was about flow state. Oh, cool. And so I was pretty fascinated with it. One of the things I found is that the thing that I did as a graduate student research project was that I I, I was kind of measuring, you know, so different people will experience flow state more readily than other people. Some people experience it more often, or are more motivated by flow state. Other people less. So, okay, and then I basically like correlated that with activities that are commonly to commonly induce flow state. So things, yeah, like mountain biking, or, you know, those kinds of things where people experience flow state. Could be playing music or whatever it is, and so then, then, I like, correlated, okay, well, if you know, if you’re a person that that is more motivated, more motivated or able to achieve flow state more often, are you more likely to participate in that flow inducing activity more often. And the answers was yes, okay, but let’s think a little bit about what float flow state. And you know the definition of flow state is really like that you have a matching of your skill ability, and then the the challenge level, okay, so you think about this exact confluence of that you’re you’re challenged in a in a meaningful way, and that you, the skill that you have meets that challenge. Just, okay, yeah. And that’s like perfect flow state.
Jeff Barber 42:41
OK so not too challenging, and it’s not too easy. It’s exactly okay.
Josh Whitmore 42:45
And your skill, the skill ability that you have to add to it is like it matches that. So as a coach, the way we work with that is that is thinking about how people learn, learn in general. And there’s this other there’s this teaching model that’s basically starts out with that you’re you’re unconsciously incompetent. That’s, it’s like you’re incompetent at what you’re trying to do, and you don’t even know what you’re doing wrong. Okay, so as a coach, we’ve been there people from that, that unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence, all right, like, hey, here, here’s how this thing works, and here’s how to do it, but you still can’t do it. Like, now you at least understand the steps. Yeah, yeah. You’re of a conscious incompetence, okay? And then, and then, through a lot of practice, and, you know, step wise stuff, and all the coach, you know, magic that we put into things, then, you know, then we lead to a conscious competence, where it’s like, you you can do it, but it is still a very conscious process. You’re not necessarily in that flow state yet, where everything, where time disappears, and you just, you know, you just do the thing without thinking about it in that flow state, yeah. So that conscious competence might be that like, Oh, you have to, you have to consciously think, Oh, when I see a, b and c, I got to do x, y and z. So, but it’s still kind of a clunky, conscious process. And then through doing that over and over again, it eventually leads to what we call unconscious competence. It’s a lot, a lot of rhyming here, which is basically the means that you’re doing it well, and you don’t even, you don’t have to consciously think about what you’re doing. So that’s, that’s kind of where flow lives in, that it’s just happening. You know, you’re able to cruise off that jump or a series of jumps down a trail, and you’re not, you know, the computer in your brain isn’t looking at each ramp and thinking about the size and the shape and the speed and like, tabulating this, like spreadsheet of outcomes, you know, press here, do that, you know, whatever, it just happens. And that’s, you know, it’s sort of a joyous flow experience.
Jeff Barber 44:55
Yeah, this is fascinating. And I like how. Right, how you make it? I mean, it’s, that’s a very simple definition of where your skill meets the challenge Exactly. And so now I’m wondering about, and you also mentioned that people, you know, for some people like, like, getting to that flow state is, you know, is more they really want to do it like they it makes them happier, or whatever, whatever metric we can put on it. And so I’m curious. So let’s say there is a trail or a section of trail that is, you know, the perfect match for my skill. It’s the perfect amount of challenge. And so potentially, it sounds like I’m going to hit that flow state, but now I’m curious, can I hit it again, like, multiple times, or once I meet that challenge? Is it? It’s it’s done, and I need, like, a more challenging thing, like, how do I keep accessing that flow state? If, if it is that balance between challenge and skill?
Josh Whitmore 45:56
Yeah, you can absolutely hit it again in that same thing. And I go back to those in the very beginning. Our conversation is kind of like six performance affecting factors that you know, maybe something changes and it pulls you out of flow state, that your psychological mindset or whatever, it changes in that and that prevents you from being in flow state on that same section of trail. Maybe the environmental conditions change. It like, you know, it rained overnight or something. Oh, right, yep, you know, maybe you’re riding a different bike, or, like, whatever it is, you know, maybe you’re tired from physically, from you did your, you know, we’re at the gym in the morning, or you’ve been riding a bunch of the past few days, or, you know, it’s at the end of the day at the bike park, and you’re just smoked, you know, or at the end of a long ride. But, you know, so I would say that the if you’re, it takes a while for your because we think about flow, is the, you know that meaning of challenge and skill. You know, if you’re, if your skill ability is increasing over long term time, then the challenge level of that same section of trail may also just become boring to you at some point, right? I see or less, less your level of arousal be less. So I Yeah, so I noticed that all the time is like, I travel quite a bit to train other coaches how to be coaches, and I’ll be, you know, maybe once a year I’ll be at a location like some bike park around the country. So then, even in my own skill development, I’ll like, you know, let’s take Whistler, for example. You know, it’s like, the, you know, the each time I come back to Whistler, once a year to teach there, then I, I end up, you know, it’s like, it’s like, Oh, I’ve improved, like, the trails that I used to find flow state in, like, I’m like, are now, like, feel a little boring, like, I kind of need something else, like, so then I can it’s kind of fun to take a step away from that, that section trail you’re talking about, and then come back to it, you know, a year later, whatever. And, yeah, you know, and you’d be like, Oh, my skill level improved enough that this trail is no longer like inducing that same match of skill and challenge, though.
Jeff Barber 48:06
That’s interesting, and that kind of, it kind of answers my next question, which is, you know, how do you measure progress in skills versus, you know, fitness is pretty easy, right? I mean, you could go out and you could run a mile and, you know, next day, see if you’re faster. But with skills, how do you measure that you’re actually improving and that your skills are better from one day to the next?
Josh Whitmore 48:32
Well, at first, it’s really tough to, yeah, to measure one day to the next, right? It’s like, you know, it’s kind of a long term improvement curve, and it’s not linear either. There’ll be times when you may be worse. There feel worse, and specifically, too when we a lot of times when we’re learning new things, especially for better riders like it feels more awkward and weird or slow to do things differently you’re mapping new movement patterns. And so then it may actually feel worse for a while, until it, until it like incorporates. So I run into that quite a lot with, like, the real high level riders that, you know, like, promise them that, like,
Speaker 1 49:12
they’re like, freaking out. You’re like, what this? You messing me up? Just like, stay with it. It’s like,
Josh Whitmore 49:18
This feels worse, you know? It’s like, Yeah, well, you’re, you’re like, good right now, in spite of yourself, so but, but I think, I mean, one way to measure that long term is, like, it’s really like, your fun meter, like, are you having more fun on the same terrain, or, like that, achieving flow, stay more off, or whatever, your confidence in terrain, you know. So you know, you like, let’s say, you know, think about like, drops as a, as a classic one of this that you know you you rock up to this big drop and you’re like, you know your brain is, like, scared. Like, no, I don’t want to do that. That’s too much. Yeah, yeah. You go away. You do homework. You. Around other smaller drops, you like, work on your skills or whatever, and you come back to that same big drop, and you’d be like, how do I feel about it? And it’s like, no, I don’t want to do it. Like, too hard. Go away. Like, do more work, whatever. Then you come back, and eventually you come back and be like, Oh, I see that. I can do that. Yeah. And then then it’s time to execute. You know, it’s, it’s, I like it when you rock up to old features that used to scare you, and be like, Oh, now I see it like I see another rider do it. And you’d be like, Oh, I totally get I can do that. Yeah, yeah. Those are good. Those are good sensations to tell your end. Also, I guess video analysis is another way. So we we’d use this app called sportsense Quite a lot, which is a Video Analysis Tool for sport stuff. And so we through that like, I encouraged our clients to send us videos of them doing things, you know, down the road, and you would give them, like, continual feedback on their what they’re doing and but you even just like self video is good. And the way that, if you can, are looking for, you know, did I move more? Did was my timing good?
Jeff Barber 51:06
And does that actually quantify it too for you. I mean, it sounds like it’s, it’s more sophisticated than just like an iPhone video that you watch back. Does it kind of quantify, like your your form, or your, how you’re doing on your skills?
Josh Whitmore 51:19
No, it doesn’t really, like, quantify.
It’s definitely not that level of detail, but, but, you know, you could think about, like, your, you know, your self perception versus what you actually you’re doing, you know, is, you know, you see a video of yourself, you’re like, Oh, well, I wasn’t low at all through that. Or, like, I thought I was getting my hips outside of the bike on that term, but I like, I really wasn’t. Or like, look how stiff. And, you know.
Jeff Barber 51:57
On Reddit and different forums people will post a video and be like, how’s my form? And so, yeah, it sounds like that’s, that’s a really helpful thing to do.
Josh Whitmore 52:06
If the more fitness measure metrics aren’t, you know, like, segment times or, or, you know, power output, or whatever, you know, whatever it is like, if that’s, if we’re beyond that, that level of detail, then, yeah, some of those other things can be more subjective.
Jeff Barber 52:27
Well, I feel like I should highlight that you gave us an answer to a bonus question there, which I didn’t even ask, which is, you know, about, I think a lot of people struggle with, with fear, and, you know, rolling up to a feature and being afraid and being like, Well, how do I get over that fear? And I think you answered it without, without me asking the question, but to say that, I mean, you kind of know, like you need those skills, and when you have those skills, you’ll know that you’re ready. You know, a lot of I think when we watch somebody like, say, a rampage athlete doing a thing, and we’re just like, Oh my gosh. They just must have no fear. That’s, that’s not it. They have skills. That’s the difference, right?
Josh Whitmore 53:15
I guess a key takeaway that is that that happens to all of us in some shape or fashion that, you know, especially when we get into terrain that is feels consequential to us. And, you know, let’s think about, I mean that real quick, like the Rampage athlete, you know, on the kind of jumps that I like jumping, and chief low state on jumping like that, that would not feel consequential to them, like it’s that’s very easy, you know, but the kind of stuff that they’re riding is, like, at the edge of their ability. And so they’re gonna, they’re gonna feel fear. And I think the the mindset thing, and I help riders do this all the time, is to is to understand that fear is not a it’s it’s a good thing in the way that it’s our brain telling us to be cautious and fear. The fear can be thought about in a on a continuum of, like, slightly aroused and maybe a little anxious to all the way up to like debilitating like fight or flight, like, you know, like flight kind of thing, right? You know, so you have to, kind of, like, understand where you are in that on that scale, it’s okay to be nervous about stuff. Now, the opportunity for being somewhere in that scale where that’s not debilitating is that fear can heighten your ability to focus and to execute. So when I’m writing stuff that’s like, consequential and it’s like getting towards the edge, near the edge of my ability, I’m going to be nervous, right? But as long as I’m nervous to a level that is a performance enhancer in the way that it allows me to focus and execute and be excellent, then that’s a good thing. If it tips over the. Balance into that it robs my performance, then that’s when we need to, like, shift to do something else. Can we change that state of mind? Or do we need to say no for the day?
Jeff Barber 55:14
Yeah, so recognize, I think, is that’s probably always going to be a challenge for people, but, but it sounds like you can get better at it in terms of, like, recognizing where you are on that fear progression, just kind of with experience.
Josh Whitmore 55:29
Yeah, then and understanding, like, you know, if it’s something that’s changeable, you know, okay, let’s say that you are at a feature that you you know, you have the ability to do. You’ve done the homework. You’ve written things similar to that in the past. Maybe you’ve written that thing before, but for whatever reason, like you’re experiencing this kind of fear response at the moment, you know, is that a, is that a? Can you change it? Can you, you know, put yourself in the right environment to change it, surround yourself with the right people, get the right type of encouragement, you know, is it? Is it the conditions you know, whatever it is, like, you know, can you talk yourself into it in a way that changes that mindset to, I can do this and feel good about it, rather than, like, being a performance robber? So, yeah, yeah. So then, then maybe, maybe the that’s the answer to that is like, okay, breaking it down into, what are the execution pieces to this thing? And can I focus on just executing the sequence of events that need to happen to make this thing happen? And so then, rather than, like, fear of an unknown outcome or an unknown thing, like, I’m going to try it and see what happens. Like, you identify what the process is, okay, here are the steps I need to do to do this feature. Can I do those things? All right, I’m going to execute those steps. Here I go. Focus. Yeah, so those are, those are some tricks to work with, that stuff that would help with athletes all the time.
Jeff Barber 56:51
Yeah, awesome. Well, Josh, you’ve been doing this for a long time, and so I’m curious how has mountain bike coaching changed since you started?
Josh Whitmore 57:02
Yeah, well, I originally started, I guess it would have been in the late 90s. I There’s a lot of summer camps in this area, in western North Carolina, and so then a lot of those programs started getting mountain bikes in the 90s. And I was like, you know, my undergrad degree was wilderness leadership and experiential education. And we were, you know, so I was working a lot in this kind of, like, summer camp adventure programs, and trying to figure out how to, how do you teach bikes to kids in summer camp? And there was nothing that really existed at that point. So, you know, we, you know, I, like, actually wrote a curriculum guide for several summer camps of like, of how to teach mountain biking to these kids and cool. So we just didn’t have the resources. Now, going back and reading that now, it’s, yeah, it’s hilarious. You know, I was probably 19 years old and inventing this stuff on my own, you know. And then since then, you know, the mountain bike coaching industry in general is, and it’s still an emerging industry, I would say. But certainly it’s the it is become, has become a profession that you can do. You know, I teach full time year round. There’s not a lot of us in the country that can say that they do that full time, doing that, I guess, for about 10 years now. Oh, wow, full time, and that’s, um, but there’s, you know, there is a body of knowledge and an industry standard, and, you know, people that are doing it, so it’s not as well developed, I guess, as like the ski sports industry, or snow sports industry, you know, you think about like ski instruction has been going, has been going, has been happening, like at a professional level for 100 years or more. Wow. Mountain biking instruction is not that to there, and so then, therefore, there’s a wide variety of of coachability and professionalism out there in the in the profession. So, you know, certainly I might I take the mentality that I I want to help contribute to the industry to raise, you know, the classic example, like, you know, raise the tide for everyone. Let’s raise the standard of professionalism in the mountain bike coaching world, so that we all benefit the the riders, the riding public, like, understands that it’s like something that can benefit them and that is worthwhile paying for. And then it’s not, like, some kind of joke or or, like, what do you even do?
Jeff Barber 59:28
Like, if, because, if your friend goes and gets coached by somebody who, you know, maybe doesn’t have a background, they’re just a good rider, and they, you know, try to help them. And, and then that friend comes back and is like, yeah, you know, I don’t think I really learned anything from that, or I don’t know that I got better. Then, yeah, that hurts. That hurts the next guy, because then you’re like, Well, I’m not gonna sign up for a skills class. I don’t. Doesn’t sound like, that’s helpful, yeah?
Josh Whitmore 59:54
And I don’t, I don’t want to discount the, you know, the hobby coach that’s just trying to help and wants to do it out of passion. And you know that those, those are, you know, very valuable in the industry as well, that you know that you can seek information. If you’re curious about getting better and want to seek information or help, you know it can happen in any way. It can happen from your well meaning friends. You know you may or may not have any coaching, training or ability or experience, but they, but they might have good advice, right? And they’re going to help you, if they want to help, right, you know. And then, you know, all the way up to, you know, like full time professionals that, that you know, dedicated their whole lives to, you know, to this type of, type of work, you know, is going to be a different product.
Jeff Barber 1:00:42
Yeah, yeah. I’m honest with people. When people ask me, they say, Oh, how do you do this? You know, especially my son, he’ll say, you know, Dad, how do I how do I bunny hop? And just like, I’m not the person to tell you. I mean, I can do it, but I don’t, I don’t know what I’m doing or why it works, or any of that stuff. And so, yeah, I try to defer to that, but I’m sure you get, you get all kinds of responses from folks.
Josh Whitmore 1:01:09
I think a good coach is humble enough to be able to articulate the types of things that they are comfortable in coaching and the types of things when they that they are not. So you think, like a new even like a professional coach that’s newer in the industry. You know, may feel more comfortable in their wheelhouse to be able to teach, you know, more beginner to intermediate level riders, but don’t feel comfortable in helping that advanced level rider you know, like, get their whips farther out, you know, like, Yeah, I’m saying like you. But the role of that, that more beginner coach is, like, we need those coaches. We need those we need them to do a fantastic job of, like, bringing people into the sport, helping them progress. And those coaches may identify more with those beginner riders and the process that they are in and learning right now. You know, it’s a classic thing that, like, you know, like professional racers that try to do some coaching, you know, oftentimes just don’t identify with with the process that the beginner level rider is going through, you know, because the they’ll be like, Oh, just do this, and then they can’t do that, and then they’re stuck, you know, it’s like, okay, well, so anyway, there’s, there’s just to say that there’s a variety of, you know, levels of experience. But if I feel like, you know, professional people can be professional in the industry as a or be professional with their actions with a variety of experience levels, it’s all a matter of like, yeah, staying in your wheelhouse, and, you know, being Yeah, honest with what you can do.
Jeff Barber 1:02:54
As a coach, it seems like there’s a huge need, especially at at that beginner level, like you’re talking about, and, you know, I’m thinking specifically of, like, high school mountain biking, and I’m sure Nika and these, these leagues around the country have their own kind of, like basic training for adult volunteers and people like that. But yeah, it seems like that’s a huge need is for these riders to be getting, you know, the best instruction that they can. And it’s not kind of just ad hoc. And you know, maybe you have a good, good person that can coach, that’s involved with your team, maybe you don’t. So, yeah, that’s the real need, yeah.
Josh Whitmore 1:03:38
And I like that those you know, we think about like, you know, Nika, or those high school leagues in general, they do have, you know, an element of skills instruction, you know, you have volunteer coaches that are, you know, parents and things that are running those teams. And, you know, they’re very well intentioned, and a lot of them are really good at what they do, you know. But that’s a fantastic, like, kind of starting point for those kids, right? Is that right? You know, they’re getting good structure. There’s a there’s an organizational structure and curriculum that goes along with that, and so that, like volunteer coach, is able to learn how to implement a curriculum that is, you know, provided to them by, you know, like a more well thought out, you know, organization so, so in that kind of realm, like that’s, that’s being professional in even, even though the other like volunteer coaches, doing, you know, doing this out to go to their heart, you know, that, that they are able to offer a good, you know, product for what they what their intention is for that. So, so I would say that you know, the you know, the kind of, the minimum sometimes, for you know, for coaches, is that you know, if you’re going to pay someone to teach you something, you know, there’s, there’s a few like just industry standard. Prerequisites that you need to ask about right away. And that’s, you know, things like, do they have a business entity, you know, do they have commercial liability insurance.
Are they allowed? Do they have some kind of like agreement, or sometimes permits are needed in order to teach on the land that are the trails that they are in? So, for instance, here in like Pisgah, National Forest is classic that we have to, we have a commercial user agreement with the federal government US Forest Service in order to operate commercially in the National Forest. And that means that I also have to pay per person, you know, a fee to the national you know, to the federal government and for that privilege of making money in the National Forest and but that’s that can look differently for different things, right? You know, I also have to list the, you know, US Forest Service as additionally insured in my commercial insurance policy, you know, which costs money.
Jeff Barber 1:05:58
Right.
Josh Whitmore 1:06:02
But then also, you know, thinking about like, Okay, well, what kind of first aid training do they have? It’s definitely an industry standard to have some level of first aid training. Depending on the terrain that you’re working in. It’s gonna that could be different levels. So, you know, if it’s pretty front country, you know, just like basic first aid and CPR, or whether you move up through wilderness first aid, or to the more the gold standard, like wilderness first responder, they’re like more remote operations, so stuff like that that, you know that I just asked right away, encourage people to ask right away.
Jeff Barber 1:06:35
Yeah, and then there, there are levels of certification too, for coaches. So can you talk a little bit about that? I know you’re level four certified now. And so is that, like, what are the different levels mean? Like, should, should people care about that? Like, if I’m choosing a coach, what does that mean to me? And sort of, how does that work?
Josh Whitmore 1:06:58
Yeah, that’s a great question, and I want to address that by saying that it is absolutely possible to be a great coach with no certifications. Okay, there are a lot of people out there who have a lot of experience, a lot of results with coaching, who have never taken a certification course, and that’s great. They they learned the best. Ones of those have learned that through experience working with people in person, a lot of them or they’ve been able to apprentice under programs that have offered them training and, yeah, kind of mentorship. And but I would, the way that I view certification is, it’s a professional development. So in the United States, it’s not required to be certified to teach anything, well, skill stuff, like mountain biking.
Jeff Barber 1:07:56
For school, maybe? Hopefully school, there’s some kind of certification.
Josh Whitmore 1:08:01
I would say that certifications are a way to, you know, professional development for coaches. It’s a way to, yeah, like, gain more proficiency in your coaching ability and more quickly. So rather than kind of learning, trial and error, or like, iterative process in your own it’s like, okay, well, let’s lean on the the industry as a whole, and the experience of the industry of whole of like, good practice and good methodology and and be able to sort of stand on the shoulders of Those of that industry. So that’s kind of the way I think about certification now that, you know, there the level of certification mostly deals with the kind of scope of practice. So, you know, level one certification in general is like working with beginner intermediate level riders and kind of beginner, intermediate level terrain. You know, there’s certifications that deal with more air stuff like jumping and drops, kind of certifications for tech stuff. There’s, there’s certification. You know, the level four certification is the highest level, and that’s kind of working with all level riders and all terrain and also, like, more long term development of riders. So, so it’s like, you know, if you have someone you work with monthly over the period of years, like, how do you structure that into a longer term thing I see? So I would say that, you know, the the thing that certification allows the consumer to do is to easily recognize that this person has passed internationally recognized standard for the thing that they’re certified to do. So it’s, it’s like having a driver’s license in the way that you’re like, minimally competent at the level of the certification to do the thing that you that you are. Certified to do that doesn’t make you a great coach. Certification doesn’t make you a good coach. It’s just, it’s just professional development. So it’s like, there’s a lot that goes into coaching. You can’t expect to take a weekend level one certification course and suddenly be a great coach. Like, there’s a lot more that goes into it. The best coaches, even with certification, exist in an environment where there is apprenticeship and mentorship and peer learning, peer feedback, so that they can, yeah, just you learn in a myriad of ways.
Jeff Barber 1:10:35
So yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I think, right, with a lot of things, experience tends to be a really good teacher as well. And so, right, even though you’ve you’ve got that certification, it takes years to kind of develop that and really dial in your coaching.
Josh Whitmore 1:10:53
Yeah, and I would say that that certification levels are are like, it is harder to get through them, the higher you go without a lot of experience. So for instance, just the the standard to pass the level four certification really requires a coach to have coached a lot so to be able to have the proficiency to be able to do it. So so that it does go hand in hand with that a little bit the level one course is a little more attainable for kind of anyone that rides a bike, like you could, you know, if you have reasonable social skills and can ride a bike, then you could, you could reasonably do the level one course, and you’re going to get a lot out of it. You’re going to get some teaching models and some risk management practices and understand the industry more. So that’s great.
Jeff Barber 1:11:41
That’s great. And are these certifications in person, or can this be done online?
Josh Whitmore 1:11:50
Yeah, the pretty much all in person. There are some additional like, kind of like, yeah, additional professional development modules that you can do online. So, for instance, you know, if you want to learn more about adapting your coaching ability to E bikes, then, you know, then maybe there’s, like, an online module that you can take to for your certification level do that, or for or working with kids. You know, you could maybe there, you know, there’s, there’s there’s some of those kind of, like, pretty much all in person.
Jeff Barber 1:12:23
Okay, yeah, that’s good. That’s reassuring that it is, as you’re mentioning, like social skills and things, and, yeah, it’s a lot more involved than just, you know, kind of book work and knowing what to do. And it’s, it’s actually, it’s much more hands on it sounds like.
Josh Whitmore 1:12:38
Yeah, skills coaching and certification, I will say that like USA Cycling, you know, kind of like fitness, endurance coaching certifications, those are all pretty much online. So, like the base level of that you you like, you kind of study a book and take a test and that you can get your USA Cycling coaching license. So there, depending on the program, what it is. But I would say all the skill, skill based coaching certifications are just like a quick online thing.
Jeff Barber 1:13:08
Okay, gotcha cool. So you know, we’ve talked about a lot of stuff here today, skills and different tips. So I’m curious what’s one small thing that listeners could do today that would immediately make them better riders, or at least a habit that they could develop that’s going to help them.
Josh Whitmore 1:13:29
Yeah, I think the maybe this is pertinent, I guess, for most people these days, that so the riding evolve as is evolving, right? It’s always evolving. Trails are evolving, the equipment’s evolving, the way that we ride the bike, because of all that is evolving. And so, you know, one of the kind of newer, I would say newer, but I guess maybe it is newer, I would say one of the, the very most common things that I help people correct in their riding these days is just a movement pattern of vertical range of motion. So, okay, you know, and even, like, starting to, we’re starting to move a little way, a little bit away from just get low all the time, okay, you know, we very, long time ago, we used to say, like, you know, you’d hear the old myth of just get back, right? You know, get Get back, get back, get back. You know, get your way, but lean back. You know that that came from the old, old bikes when you had to do that, like 26 inch wheel bikes, very short wheel bases, deep, head angles, like you had to ride them out the back, or else you’re going over the handle watch and have a dropper post. Yeah, right. So you had to, you had to get back. I feel like that myth is pretty well dispelled at this point. Right? The kind of what we’re working with now is, is really people will do tend to be fairly more centered and more low. I will say that the current kind of like thinking is that we’re, we’re actually trying to teach people how to be taller more often now.
So being centered and all that sort of thing. So, for instance, you know, like a real beginner rider, we often do to kind of teach them the classic like, ready position of you know, how to get lower. And for everyone’s review, like, so you’re not getting too far back. It’s like you think about, like, if you’re standing up tall like a giraffe, on your pedals, chin over stem and arms and knees just slightly bent, how do you get how do you move to get lower? Well, you think about three joints. Think about your elbows, your waist and your knees. And as you move from being super tall giraffe, start bending your elbows and your waist first, and then bring in your knees later in that range of motion, and think about it like a dial from super tall all the way to touching the bike could be like 100% so if you just bend your knees, or start bending your knees first, then that’s probably the most common mistake that I’d help people correct, is that going from super tall giraffe down to get lower is to bend your elbows and your and your waist first, and then bring in the knees later. Yeah. And then this idea of kind of high hinge position where you you’ve bent your elbows and your waist and but your knees are still like more straight, using that position more often, rather than a lot of knee bend. And the reason, why is that the you know, you think about, like, efficiency, you know, strength. So, you know, if you’re standing in line at the bank, you’d stand with your knees like, fairly straight. Your muscles are for balance. Your weight is like, through your bones, if you tried to stand in line at the bank, like in Chair Pose, you know, so like, or do a wall squat, yeah? You’re not going to blast her along, right? Yeah. So back to our our body battery kind of thing. It’s like, okay, well, you know, the more weight that I’m holding in my muscles in a in chair pose when I’m on the bike, like, that’s just sucking battery from me, and I can very quickly get lower with my knees when I need to. But if you look at the best riders in the world, and you know, most of them are riding with their knees, like, fairly straight, like, a lot of the time, especially places where they need to be strong. So you also think about, like, how to strength, you know. So if I put a barbell on your back and with, you know, fairly straight legs, I could stack a lot of weight on that barbell. But if I put you in chair pose and then started stacking weight on that, on that barbell, like you’re, you’re not going to last real long, or you’re not going to be able to hold as much weight. So places where, where we’re, like, trying to stack forces through our legs into the bike, or the bike is stacking forces, you know, up through us, you know, from compression places on the trail. Then, you know, then, like, oh, maybe it makes sense to have, like, straighter knees so that we can translate those horses more efficiently and strongly and not just like through my muscles.
Jeff Barber 1:17:46
That’s great. You just unlocked something for me, because that’s, you know, long distance. I’m like, Why are my legs so tired? And it’s probably because I’m bending my knees too much.
Josh Whitmore 1:17:56
You’re bending your knees too much. Yeah, that means that you got to know, you got to know when to bend your knees and how much to bend your knees, right? But the default position should be like a taller position, especially with your knees, and then, and then have an intentional approach of, like, when and how much to bend the knees, because there’s, there’s absolutely times we need to bend the knees, you know, anytime that you want to, you know, push through your pedals, through the bike to, like, add pressure, you know, to the, you know, to pump something, all sort of thing, like, you got it, you got to, like, bend your knees in order to wind up that motion, right? You know, to push your feet farther away, you know. So, yeah, there’s so that’s the in for beginner riders, like we tend to default more towards stability and confidence. And so we try to just, they mostly just get low, and that helps them feel like more confident, and then and stable. But we’re less worried about efficiency for them and then and then. But as riders move up through intermediate, advanced level riding, then I’m often, often, actually just I’m teaching them to be taller more often, and how to use that, that straighter limbs, and then bend your knees when you need to, only bend your knees if you need please.
Jeff Barbr 1:19:07
Yeah, that’s a great one to think about and to practice a little bit. Well, Josh, what’s the best way for riders to get in touch with you or to learn more about MTB Skills Factory?
Josh Whitmore 1:19:20
I mean, our website is pretty easy. It’s just MTBSkillsFactory.com. Yes, we there, there’s we offer private lessons and group clinics. We also do just regular guided rides in this region and shuttle transports. We do youth camps, like day camps, summer camps for kids, and we operate in western North Carolina, sort of like eight different trail systems from Brevard all the way up to Boone, North Carolina. So, you know, kind of the span of all of Western North Carolina, including, yeah, like National Forest, like Pisgah, but then also bike parks like canuga and, you know, like that kind of stuff, beach mountain, like different places like that. So the website’s pretty good. We’re pretty active on Instagram too. So we’re just MTB skills factory on Instagram and but yeah, there’s all the contact infos on there. We’re pretty active with that. Yeah, I’d love to come and see you. And then also, I also teach the certification courses for mountain bike coaches through the what’s called the gsmbc, which is the global syndicate of mountain bike coaches, which is a newer organization that spun off of the pmbia, if you follow that world. So anyway, so through gsnbc, I’ll teach this certification courses through levels one through three, and I do that kind of all over the country. So chances are, if you’re listening this podcast, I will probably you might see me on the trail somewhere. Come see us.
Jeff Barber 1:20:42
Great. Got a lot going on, Josh, this has been awesome. Thanks so much for taking the time to share your insights and experience with us. It’s been it’s been great.
Josh Whitmore
Yeah, thanks, Jeff. I really enjoyed it.
Jeff Barber
And thanks to you for listening to the Singletracks podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate us wherever you, get your podcasts and share with a friend who’s looking to ride smoother and with more confidence. That’s all we’ve got this week. We’ll talk to you again next time. Peace.
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