-
Posts
-
-
And I challenge you to do the same!
-
Good post. There have certainly been times in my life when I’ve put away the GPS/stopwatch because it had become too distracting (or soul crushing). At the end of the day, a computer/stopwatch/app is just a tool and if the tool isn’t working, we should put it down.
For me, I like using Strava to encourage my friends and to also be somewhat accountable for my fitness. I honestly don’t focus on KOMs or even PRs right now but I do like giving (and receiving) kudos and feeling accountable to get out to run or ride a few times a week. I also use Strava as a record of my explorations–I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gone back to old rides to find a trail I wanted to share or ride again.
-
Yeah, nothing like thinking you were riding a piece of trail super fast just to look at the KOM list and see you are not even in the top half…hah. That’s what I get for living in a city where all the Olympians train too….yeah, that’s it, i’m not slow at all.
Those are the reasons I said I was using it too…but then I realized I was not really doing anything with the info I was gathering…it was just eating into my ride with crap that didn’t need to be there or was not enhancing my experience…so I got rid of it.
-
I think "challenging others to do the same" is treading on curmudgeonly "GET OFF MY LAWN" action. Although the technology didn’t fit into your needs, some people ride for the personal challenge and some people ride for the social competition. Both of those people benefit from the Strava app.
I don’t use Strava but even if I did, I wouldn’t be bothering any friends and family by posting statuses or tweeting my results. That’s because I don’t use Facebook or Twitter either. I personally believe that the systems have cheapened relationships to 140 characters, pokes, one-click friendships and likes. If I had really wanted to know what my brother’s best friend’s mother’s aunt’s gradeschool teacher’s ex-wife thought of Obama, I would ask her and if I had wanted to keep in touch with that kid in 6th grade that ate his boogers when he thought nobody was looking, I would have gotten his address. That, however, doesn’t mean I go around challenging people to quit using social networks. I don’t care what everyone else uses. I’m not here to convince anyone that my way is the best way. I only hope that whatever they choose makes them happy.
You should be challenging people to use whatever enriches their time in the woods. If that is Strava, I hope they use it.
-
Thanks for your post schwim, your right, it’s not for everyone….but those were thoughts rambling around in my head so I posted them up. Thanks for reading it. 😀
-
Those are the reasons I said I was using it too…but then I realized I was not really doing anything with the info I was gathering…it was just eating into my ride with crap that didn’t need to be there or was not enhancing my experience…so I got rid of it.
So because you personally don’t do anything with your data, that means that everyone else should uninstall Strava too? 😏
I think Schwim is right here. If you don’t use it for a certain reason, that’s fine… but that doesn’t mean that everyone else should quit using it too. However, if people are [i:3sbho039]obsessing[/i:3sbho039] about their Strava data, perhaps it would be a good idea to encourage them to take a balanced view (which is what I did in this article), instead of just saying that Strava as a whole is bad.
Personally, I logged much of the same information that Strava logs for years before I ever heard of "Strava." Strava’s tools make it much easier for me to collect, organize, and analyze that data, so I totally dig it!
-
I never said you had to….I stated my opinion. The challenge is there to take if you want, it really makes no difference to me or not…do what makes you happy!
If you look at the comments I say this:
"…it’s different strokes for different folks. Do what works for you and what makes you happy and you can’t really go wrong.
I do find it’s always good to challenge your way of thinking once in a while and think of the reasons you really do something…and is it REALLY working for you, or do you just do it because it’s what you have always done and it’s what you are comfortable with."
-
There ARE plenty of valid reasons people should uninstall Strava–like if someone is becoming a Stravahole on the trail in their pursuit of KOMs. Or if they’re riding illegal trails and using Strava to promote those places.
-
"pedalhound" wrote
I never said you had to….I stated my opinion. The challenge is there to take if you want, it really makes no difference to me or not…do what makes you happy!
If you look at the comments I say this:
"…it’s different strokes for different folks. Do what works for you and what makes you happy and you can’t really go wrong.
Yes, and you said this at the end of your article:
that’s why I uninstalled Strava and I challenge you to do the same.Just sayin’, man 😀
I do find it’s always good to challenge your way of thinking once in a while and think of the reasons you really do something…and is it REALLY working for you, or do you just do it because it’s what you have always done and it’s what you are comfortable with."Definitely! As Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living for a human being." It’s just that I’ve already examined why and how I use Strava, and I’m down with it
"jeff" wroteThere ARE plenty of valid reasons people should uninstall Strava–like if someone is becoming a Stravahole on the trail in their pursuit of KOMs. Or if they’re riding illegal trails and using Strava to promote those places.
Definitely! I think we should encourage people to use Strava smartly: don’t post rides on illegal trails, and don’t be an a-hole. Of course, if someone is acting like an a-hole, they may be beyond help!
-
"jeff" wrote
There ARE plenty of valid reasons people should uninstall Strava–like if someone is becoming a Stravahole on the trail in their pursuit of KOMs. Or if they’re riding illegal trails and using Strava to promote those places.
Unfortunately, assuming that an asshole would stop being an asshole once they uninstall the app is likely incorrect. Strava is an outlet for them. It doesn’t make them who they are.
Posted via Tapatalk while doing 60 in my car and staring at my phone.
-
As I said, it’s just a challenge, people can choose to take it or not, it’s not like I am telling people to do it or else…that’s not my style. You choose to or not….I just want people to think about it more.
Haha…assholes are always going to be assholes, so very true.
-
There’s a ton of great reasons to Strava. Almost all of them fall under the heading "I am a cyclist who TRAINS".
Many of the rest of us can probably come up with a list of cons that outweigh the pros. I’ve found that even if I turn it on to simply track the stats of my ride (distance, elevation, etc), or to be able to see exactly where I went, I can’t help but feel the stare of a thousand eyes on my every move ("aww, THAT line just cost me", "this water break at the top of this climb is gonna hurt my average speed", etc). I know it’s cliché and touchy-feely esoteric, but the beauty, bliss, and solitude that I find on a bike is… [i:2rhj1uzl]distorted[/i:2rhj1uzl] when I use Strava. I switched to another app (runtastic mtb) that removes the competition with strangers. I will say that I still use Strava to scout out new trails to explore! -
What I love about STRAVA (with the disclaimer that yes I am one of their brand ambasadors):
1. Accountability – I meet riders all of the time who go on and on about how much they ride, how fast they are, etc… STRAVA makes it possible for me to say "Prove it." Because most of the people I know who bad mouth the site are the same ones who do a lot of talking but when you actually do ride with them, it is obvious that they are FOS.
I like being able to look at someone’s profile and immediately know if they like to ride their bike or if they like to talk about riding their bike.
2. Heat maps – I ride all over the country and I love being able to map everywhere I’ve ridden. [url:24y07vc7]http://app.strava.com/athletes/4398/heatmaps/3fa8f9c5#10/33.57801/-117.59766[/url:24y07vc7]
3. I don’t particularly like races these days. Most of the promoters over fill their registrations leading to courses that are at times nothing more than hike-a-bike traffic jams full of riders who can barely stay upright on their own let alone surrounded by a couple of hundred other riders. STRAVA gives me means of competing where I don’t have to deal with this.
4. Exploring new areas – I can go to an area and look at the map and see what segments have been created which gives me a pretty good idea of what is worth riding.
5. Inspiring other riders to ride more by encouraging them to join the challenges. Not because they may win but so they challenge themselves to ride further, climb more and just become better riders and increase their fitness.
I’ll leave it at five but I could add quite a few more including that I’ve met some fantastic people through STRAVA who I never would have met without it.
-
"Eric Foltz" wrote
I meet riders all of the time who go on and on about how much they ride, how fast they are, etc… STRAVA makes it possible for me to say "Prove it."
That pretty much wraps up why Strava is not my cup of tea in one sentence. I can’t tell you how happy I am that I don’t ride with anyone that would utter either one of those sentiments.
-
I use Strava to keep track of my miles & to find trails I didn’t know were there using the Explore feature. But I keep my phone in my bag. After I lost my cycling computer a few years ago I quickly discovered I preferred not knowing how fast I was going/how far etc while I was riding. But it’s nice to review my ride afterwards.
sent from my Galaxy Note 3
-
I tried strava but use mountain bike pro to measure my trails after that I just time myself. I only want to measure myself against myself to see improvements. Strava linked to social media just isn’t me.
-
No need for me to write a long response all points have been hit. I think the bottom line is let people do what the want. I use Strava on every ride. The only time I really analyze anything is on my rides where there is a specific training purpose in mind and generally on those rides I have on my HRM. I will also anaylize my soon to be long rides for training purposes. Otherwise I will upload it and forget about it and let it total up my numbers.
-
Strava is very good at what it does, no doubt about it, but as I said in the post…it’s just not for me. If I am going to map a ride there are better tools for it without all the extra fluff that Strava adds. If I were seriously training then my views would probably be different…but that’s what is so good about our sport, it can be exactly what you want it to be. Some people want to just get out and enjoy the ride…some want to push themselves hard, some want to race…I love the diversity that everyone brings to this awesome sport.
-
Good for You for uninstalling Strava and enjoying rides again. There’re riders who addicted to collecting and sharing data. These guys and gals constantly thinking about speed, miles etc while riding. But nobody really care if you rode today or not, or how fast. Because, like was said in your blog, it’s just cold data that doesn’t show was it a good ride or casual workout, did you encounter a bear or rolled over a snake…
There is another group of people who is not addicted and using apps like Strava to track their miles and trails without sharing anywhere. I don’t use social networks either but ride with Strava on most of my rides. The only thing that I don’t even pause it when I wanna take a 30 min brake.
I think, it’s not about Strava but about state of mind. If you’re addicted to pushing harder/going faster, uninstalling an app won’t solve the problem. Still, good starting point though 😀 -
I agree that sharing every ride on social media can get annoying to friends, especially those who don’t ride. When I signed up for Strava I didn’t connect it to FB for that very reason.
-
"jeff" wrote
I agree that sharing every ride on social media can get annoying to friends, especially those who don’t ride. When I signed up for Strava I didn’t connect it to FB for that very reason.
Same here. And it is funny, I have some of the most awful times on some of the trails, because I ride with kids and new riders a lot. One of the main reasons I like to keep using Strava is to show those riders (who generally don’t have Strava) what they have accomplished with the trail map and elevation profile.
-
Here here, schwim.
Dang, Foltz! You’re an ambassador of the "brand" and the first reason you can think of is that it gives you hard data with which you can judge whether a fellow rider measures up to your criteria?? I dunno… having/needing to PROVE that I’m a "legit" cyclist (or asking it of others) is some self-involved nonsense that has nothing to do with actually pedaling trails. Kind of like how the weight of my bike or presence of ceramic bearings has nothing to do with it also. You can go ahead and do it. Please, just don’t use it as a way to feel superior to others. -
"cpinkhouse" wrote
Here here, schwim.
Dang, Foltz! You’re an ambassador of the "brand" and the first reason you can think of is that it gives you hard data with which you can judge whether a fellow rider measures up to your criteria?? I dunno… having/needing to PROVE that I’m a "legit" cyclist (or asking it of others) is some self-involved nonsense that has nothing to do with actually pedaling trails. Kind of like how the weight of my bike or presence of ceramic bearings has nothing to do with it also. You can go ahead and do it. Please, just don’t use it as a way to feel superior to others.It actually has nothing to do with feeling superior to others. It has to do with establishing the credibility of the person.
This is especially important when the people that I am referring to seem to be the ones who spend the most time giving advice on online forums. Over the years I have seen some pretty horrendous advice given on everything from nutrition to training to bike buying advice to tire reviews etc…
The people I refer to are the ones who like to constantly post about every subject whether or not they know anything about it. But by always posting, they somehow establish themselves as experts. The unfortunate side of this is that the beginners who can’t see through the BS then end up getting bad and sometimes even dangerous advice.
So when I refer to "Prove it," it has more to do with me having a way to filter through and see who’s advice is actually worth listening to, the guy who rides once a week at best and maybe hits a couple hundred miles per year, or the guy who consistently rides week in and week out and actually puts his gear through the wringer.
I’m going to give you a couple of examples:
1. Tire reviews – How many times do you read a review and it says, "I’ve had these tires on for 2 years and they are the best." As someone who puts in some miles, I would be much more interested in hearing how many miles you got out of them than how many years. I go through a rear tire every 6-8 weeks with 1000-1500 miles. Wouldn’t mileage be a little more helpful. But not giving mileage is how some people avoid actually admitting that they don’t really ride.
2. Trail Ratings – I think we can all see the weakness in the rating system on the site. Trails that are convenient get more ratings and therefore end up higher on the list. Trails that are convenient also attract riders with a different skill level. Popularity does not equal quality. Seeing an indoor bike park with a higher rating than Bootleg Canyon should prove my point. As someone who has ridden all over the country, my standards for ratings are probably a little higher than someone who has only ridden a couple of local trails. I like to be able to weed through and see what riders who have been around have to say about a trail before I spend time and money going there.
Now, you may still think that this seems elitist and that is up to you. But like it or not, some people’s opinions are worth more than others. Everyone who buys a bike is not instantly an expert on everything bike related. I’ve been riding for 40+ years starting in BMX. I ride MTB, Road, have ridden across the country from San Diego to Florida on a mountain bike unsupported.
I would never claim to be an expert on any of it, but I do know a little bit. And I know that I like to be able to see how credible someone is before I listen to their advice. Seeing a person’s ride history gives me a pretty good idea of how much weight I should give what someone says.
-
Taken at face value, it seems that you have some valid points but I haven’t checked your ride data yet, so will have to assume that this was pulled directly from your ass in an effort to lead the people on the forum astray.
If I find that you ride often and fast enough, I will take your viewpoints as my own. This unfortunately won’t bolster your position, seeing as how I don’t hold any KOMs and therefore cannot be trusted. In fact, this may be seen as a detraction in your distrustful and combative hobby of mountain biking so you may want to publicly deny any affiliation with me, in case some of my untrustworthiness rub off on you.
Posted via Tapatalk while doing 60 in my car and staring at my phone.
-
Oh Scwimm "No KOM’s." Well that won’t stop me from letting you know we are having a group ride at Jackrabbit at 1030 hours on Sunday Feb 23rd. It would be great to ride with you again. We will probably have about 8 of us out there feel free to bring a friend. It will be a fun mellow ride with some great people. If anything happens and it is cancelled due to weather or otherwise I’ll let you know.
-
2. Trail Ratings – I think we can all see the weakness in the rating system on the site. Trails that are convenient get more ratings and therefore end up higher on the list. Trails that are convenient also attract riders with a different skill level. Popularity does not equal quality. Seeing an indoor bike park with a higher rating than Bootleg Canyon should prove my point. As someone who has ridden all over the country, my standards for ratings are probably a little higher than someone who has only ridden a couple of local trails. I like to be able to weed through and see what riders who have been around have to say about a trail before I spend time and money going there.
This is something that we’ve debated on here before. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and we love it when people give their opinions here, so on our system at least, there’s really no way around it 😀 However, in the past I think our rankings used to be even more popularity-biased, but we’ve made tweaks in recent months that have helped provide better trail rankings on the list, IMO. But like you said, someone who has only ridden one trail and is like, "OMG, this trail is awesome! I love mountain biking! 5 Stars!" probably isn’t the best reviewer… so a grain of salt is always required!
If you’re browsing Singletracks and you’re looking for the best trails to ride, here are a few tips:
1) I always look at the photos. If I see awesome photos of features or singletrack that I want to ride, then I’m sold on that trail.
2) We’ve been writing trail-related content on the Singletracks blog since about 2007, and most of those ride reports have been linked up to trail listings. For instance, today’s fat bike ride report from North Table Mountain is linked to from the North Table Mountain trail listing via the "Articles" tab on the top of the page: http://www.singletracks.com/bike-trails … ntain.html So if you ever see a number on the articles tab on a trail, you can always check out what one of our editorial team members had to say about it.
3) While I’m never going to discount local knowledge (the person who’s only ridden the trails in their local area , but rides them all the time, still knows the trails the best), we do have a few ranking systems of our own in place. If you want to see who’s ridden the most trails, check out this leaderboard: http://www.singletracks.com/php/top.php?action=rider
And if you want to see who’s submitted the most content, check out this leaderboard: http://www.singletracks.com/member.php (Now filterable by state, so you can see who are the most active contributors in a specific area.)Hope this gives a little insight into how we have things organized here on Singletracks 😀
-
To be completely honest, a few years ago I probably had the same attitude as Eric toward meeting riders on the trail. Personally, I often undersell my own abilities to others so whenever riders told me how fast/amazing they were on the bike, I took that at face value–only to later find out they weren’t as good as I assumed they were. So I recalibrated; now whenever someone tells me how good they are, I knock that down about 25% and it seems to be pretty accurate. 😀 No GPS data required.
So Eric’s comments bring up a similar discussion we had here at Singletracks a couple years ago. Members love to quibble about the difficulty ratings on Singletracks. Some people complain a rating is too high (that trail is easy! it’s no black diamond) while others (who are probably too embarrassed to say anything) think the ratings are understated. That’s why we average the ratings over dozens of riders to try to get at the true difficulty. [We believe even "official" trail difficulty ratings aren’t quite as accurate as crowd-sourced ratings since they often draw on the opinions of just a few evaluators.]
But one of the ideas we had was to somehow factor in a member’s riding abilities into difficulty ratings. So if a member is really experienced rider and they rate a trail easy/beginner, we might actually bump that up to an intermediate. Similarly, if a newb rates a trail as difficult, we might not weight that rating as highly. Anyway, there’s no good way of classifying members (if we ask, we know that won’t be accurate) so we scrapped the idea.
Strava data really just gives you a snapshot into a rider’s [i:n6mebh4d]fitness[/i:n6mebh4d] abilities at a given time. To be clear, the difficulty ratings on Singletracks ONLY refer to technical difficulty, not physical difficulty. Trail distances and elevation gain/loss should give riders an idea of a trail’s physical challenge.
-
Strava data really just gives you a snapshot into a rider’s fitness abilities at a given time.
Haha, I think this is a great point! Last spring, when I was throwing down hundred-mile road rides and 8-10 hour MTB rides in training for my dirty century, I was in the best biking shape of my life! Now, I’ve been riding a bit this winter, but have logged 20 days of skiing, so my biking legs aren’t nearly what they were this time last year 😆
Also, last spring was the only time I ever remember being faster than Jeff on a bike… and it was because I had been logging a ton of miles, and he hadn’t ridden in, like, a month. I may never get another opportunity like that 😉
-
Good points Greg. For a lot of people, convenience is one of the factors that makes a trail great. For others, it’s being able to spin tires on desolate trails.
It’s up to the individual to understand their own trail preferences and use all the tools available to drill down on the types of trails they enjoy. No list will ever work as a one-size-fits-all guide to the trails a person should ride; people should ride the types of trails they like.
-
"jeff" wrote
So I recalibrated; now whenever someone tells me how good they are, I knock that down about 25% and it seems to be pretty accurate. 😀
When someone says how slow they are, do you add 25%? 😃
-
"maddslacker" wrote
When someone says how slow they are, do you add 25%? 😃
Now that you mention it… sometimes I do! I guess it comes down to making a judgement about a person’s humility. Obviously that’s tough when you meet someone for the first time but I’ve met enough riders to know the slight majority will tend toward arrogance rather than humility. 😀
-
Haha, I tell people I am fat, old and slow to avoid much pressure and then when I am faster and better than they thought..I get to look good. I vet who I ride with pretty well though, so I don’t hold up the racerboys or those that would prefer to get KOM’s rather than enjoy the company.
Just because someone is fast or puts on lots of miles does not mean that they automatically know more about the sport. It means they rides lots, that’s it. Everyone brings their own knowledge to the sport, everyone has their own biases, opinions and things they have learned about the sport and just because you have a KOM or two does not mean you are better than the next guy, it just means you are faster.
The funny thing is that since uninstalling strava I find myself missing it…missing the data. I have not been able to ride for a long time, between health and bike issues…so now I when I ride I get this feeling that I want to see how I am doing compared to my old times…ugh.
A ride is more than just data…yes the data is fun, I friggin love some of the things strava is doing with all the data they are collecting, but it’s just numbers.
I think if they added a way to add geotagged photos to your rides, a way to add stories and share more of what the ride actually is they would go to the next level. A way to make your own maps, overlay your rides to complete area maps, be able to edit your rides, name trails and all that…that would be useful.
As I stated I think that for some things Strava is great…but for the most part it’s just data and that’s boring. Make it more fun and let people show off their unique riding areas and link that all to social media it would get even bigger than it is right now.
-
"pedalhound" wrote
I think if they added a way to add geotagged photos to your rides, a way to add stories and share more of what the ride actually is they would go to the next level. A way to make your own maps, overlay your rides to complete area maps, be able to edit your rides, name trails and all that…that would be useful.
As I stated I think that for some things Strava is great…but for the most part it’s just data and that’s boring. Make it more fun and let people show off their unique riding areas and link that all to social media it would get even bigger than it is right now.
Sounds like you’d like to see Strava become Singletracks. 😀 I don’t think they’ll be going down that path anytime soon (though you can geo-tag photos by linking Strava to your Instagram account) but Singletracks is making it possible to share your Strava data on this site:
-
Nice Jeff! To tell the truth I have not really played with your mapping functions yet…but I like what I see…very cool.
If Strava does not want to go down that route it just leaves the door open to someone like you guys (don’t know if you would be interested in making an app like that…but the market is there.) who sees the marketability of more than just data.
-
"pedalhound" wrote
don’t know if you would be interested in making an app like that…but the market is there.
Several years ago we launched a site called GPSapp.net that is focused on allowing users to create and edit their own maps. This does some of what I think you’re talking about.
The other stuff–sharing trail stories (reviews), maps, and geo-tagged photos from the trails–that’s what Singletracks is for. 😀
-
I didn’t realize quite how easy it was to get sucked in by strava until yesterday.
I’ve been using mapmyride for about 18 months on my phone, basically to record how many miles I’ve done. After many years off my bike I ride to (try to) shed some fat and for fun.
A few months ago I installed strava. I sometimes go through periods of downloading apps, sometimes they sit there doing nothing before I delete them, sometimes I try them out. I’ve recently been running strava and mapmyride concurrently on rides (and noticed that there are some discrepancies in their reporting, in both distance and calories…)So yesterday I was actually looking closely at the results of the days ride. There are 3 parks very close to me that I can combine and easily manage 15 miles of single/dirt track and fireroad. I actually felt I did "fairly well", I seemed to have some energy and felt I was riding a little faster. Both apps confirmed, on average, I rode 1 mph faster than I usually do.
I won’t call it a "hill", but there is a "slight incline" that usually has me breathing a little heavier by the time I reach the top. But yesterday I seemed to "fly" up it. According to strava, I’m 8th and set a PR! I recognized the name of the guy who was 1st. I don’t know him, but I do know of him, I’ve seen him post on other forums and local FB MTB groups. He’s a slim, athletic guy, who also rides in some of the local races. He was only 16 seconds faster than me.
I thought I did well yesterday, even before I checked strava. But hey, this guy is (obviously) fitter than me, but you know what? I bet I could shave a second, maybe two, off my time and get closer to his.
Looking around, I noticed another segment, a piece of single track, that I love the start of, but then turns into a long sandpit… I still ride it anyway… But then I saw it! Holy crap! I’m one second faster than that guy! I’m 5th! And he’s 6th! I’m gonna have to work harder if I don’t want him to overtake me on that segment!Then it hit me. My next ride was going to be a race. Against the clock, if not actually against anybody else in person.
Thats not why I ride. I stood on the brink. I looked deep into a yawning chasm. But I was able to step back. But for how long? I’m riding there again tomorrow… -
"swerverider" wrote
(and noticed that there are some discrepancies in their reporting, in both distance and calories…)
I’ve used MMR for a few years and because of them thought that a 7 hour 40 mile ride burned an average of 350 calories. Then I got a heart rate monitor.
I think the MMR guys use a random number generator for some of their stats.
-
Well said Swerverider! I’ve done the same thing. Also, on areas (road bike mainly) that I’m really fast and think I’ve set a very respectable time, I’ve seen people that have completely destroyed my time by as much as double! While I know I’m not the fastest guy, I know I’m not that slow. I sometimes wonder how some of the top speeds are set…
"schwim" wrote[quote="swerverider":3tvzs8a5](and noticed that there are some discrepancies in their reporting, in both distance and calories…)
I’ve used MMR for a few years and because of them thought that a 7 hour 40 mile ride burned an average of 350 calories. Then I got a heart rate monitor.
I think the MMR guys use a random number generator for some of their stats.[/quote:3tvzs8a5]
That is funny! I can’t bring myself to believe their formula either.
-
Strava is not always that accurate. I was riding down one of the more fun local trails last fall and thought I rode it fast for me, but not blazing fast and when I got to the lot I saw that I got KOM on it…over an ex pro racer (who held the KOM before that)…and tons of local rippers. That is just not possible…under really any circumstances…lol.
-
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.