Which mountain bike trail map do you prefer?

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    • #70015

      We’re working on improving our mountain bike trail map presentation and we need your opinion. Which style of mountain bike trail map shown here do you prefer:

      Option 1: Aerial photo
      Image
      This is how we currently show many of the trail maps on singletracks. Printing these maps to take along on a ride is tough since the colors are pretty dark. It does look cool though…

      Option 2: Topo map
      Image
      Topo maps should print better than the aerial photos. This image was created using TopoFusion software.

      As always, the goal is to provide you with the best mountain bike trail info. Let us know what you think!

    • #70016

      I’ve cast my vote for the topographic as we emailed about a couple months ago.

      I think between having the topo in the "static" view that will print out nicely and then being able to open Google Earth with the .kml link to look at the interactive Satellite image – that gives users the best of both worlds!

      As always, thanks for asking for our input regarding improvements!

    • #70017

      I would recommend the Topo Map, too. A Sat shot is only good if you really want to see what you rode but if you want to see what you are about to ride, then nothing beats a Topo.

      What do you use for the Topo background?

    • #70018

      I’ve noticed with some of the latest GPS trail map posts on the static view, they are now being posted on something which looks like a general streetmap, neither topo nor satellite, for example:
      http://www.singletracks.com/gps-tracks/ … php?id=261

      Just wondering if these are interim maps to your plans to move to the new upgraded map or if the topo’s are just not going to be used for certain areas, especially urban areas without a great deal of elevation change?

      Any update on the topo vs satellite vs street map would be great! To re-submit my vote: I vote Topo for the static map on the webpage accompanied by a link to open and superimpose the trail on Google Earth .KML.

      Thanks for all you’re doing…the site is awesome and I point everyone I run into on the trail to it.
      Especially when we have the camera out on the trail…if I take a picture or video of someone who gives me permission, I’ll tell them to look up the trail on Singletracks.com and I will have posted their picture/video out here – thought it would be good motivation to generate some new user traffic coming to the site.

    • #70019

      Good catch EZ-E, we are indeed moving forward with a third map option – what I’m calling "simple map." I spent the past couple months looking for an ideal trail mapping solution and just wasn’t happy with anything I found. What we needed was:

      1. Something that would look good when printed (color or b&w)
      2. A royalty-free solution (Google Earth is *technically* not)
      3. A simple map that made the trail pop off the background and included only necessary details (roads leading to the trailhead, landmarks like lakes/rivers)
      4. A consistent look to all the maps on the site, regardless of background map quality/availability

      Google Earth images don’t look good when printed (on my b&w printer anyway) and they can be blurry depending on the scale of the trail and satellite image availability. Plus the commercial license for GE ain’t free (or even cheap).

      I really wanted to use Topo maps and I played around with a bunch of programs but didn’t find a single program that satisfied all four requirements. Tight trail networks tend to get lost in the small scale USGS maps and huge trails lose the topo detail on the large scale maps. Some programs (like DeLorme) use vector topo maps which look great but they won’t license the images at any price. Printed topo maps come out okay, though not awesome.

      I’ve always been a fan of mountain bike guidebook style maps (think FalconGuides) since they are b&w and they only include necessary info. Topo info [i:3fbx1yxs]is[/i:3fbx1yxs] missing from these maps but:

      a. Most people don’t know how to read a real topo map
      b. The accompanying trail elevation plot shows this data for the trail itself (though admittedly this won’t help you if you decide to go off trail).

      So, after doing some reading about creating custom maps, we’ve come up with "simple map." It looks good when you print it and you can still download the trail data to view in Google Earth (KML) or your favorite Topo program (GPX). Creating "simple maps" takes about 3-4 times longer than the old method of snapping an image off Google Earth but in the end we think it’s worthwhile.

      We’re slowly updating all the maps on the site in simple map format, though for now only the new maps are being done this way. Once about half the maps have been updated we’ll start to formally promote the new and improved maps ;)

    • #70020

      Did you try Nat’l Geographic Topo? I know there are a few websites that are publishing maps using that software and was wondering whether you looked into that app or not?

    • #70021

      Yes, I’ve used National Geo and I’m not a big fan (read my review here). National Geo uses the same hit-or-miss public domain USGS data as many other topo programs plus it’s expensive since you need to purchase the data state-by-state. The license agreement also doesn’t allow you to digitally reproduce any of the map images so *technically* you can’t post these online without paying big $$.

      Speaking of big $$, we also considered a GIS solution but it’s pricey PLUS I’m not a professional map maker and the learning curve is steep.

    • #70022

      Yeah, I agree, Topo can be cumbersome when it comes to creating maps you can do excellent maps with them. There are always trade offs. I am sure you looked Terraserver. From what I understand there are APIs that let you overlay tracks but with Trerraserver you still stuck with the tiles, so inorder to creat a map, you have to somehow figure out how to create an image of that map with the Track overlaid.

      I personally like GPS Visualizer. Too bad you can’t create something that force feeds the GPX data into manual data entry window. Again, I am sure the owner would catch wind and then demand royalties as well.

      Well, its nice to find another website to share GPX data with.

    • #70023

      We much prefer topographic maps.
      I try to find USGS topo maps on several different scales, at least one for distance and one for detail.
      Satellite maps are neat, but for the most part not very useful. If overlaid with a topographical representation of the same area, it’d be more handy, but on a whole the satellite image would overwhelm the smaller details found on a topo map.

      I’ve found with topographical maps, it’s very easy to find trails and landmarks, and calculate elevation gains & losses.

    • #70024

      National Geographic: Agree…I suggested the National Geographic Topo backgrounds, as well. As I referenced a website who used the NG software to produce a trail GPS track using NG topo software that looks great: http://www.ultrahike.com/course.htm (See map and profile on page bottom)
      That was when it was mentioned that you were strongly looking at "TopoFusion"…after I looked at their site and the products they offered, I was excited to see that you were going that route.

      I can’t help it and have to say it, the "simple map" – I don’t like it…if you are going the route of the "simple map" as the solution (for example: http://www.singletracks.com/gps-tracks/ … php?id=261 ) as an alternative to any Topo or Satellite map I think it is taking a huge step backwards.

      If the GPS maps on the site were open to all and were free, then I could understand going the least cost royalties route. But, the one main thing that motivates users to become "premium members" is the access to the DETAILED trail maps. Looking at these simple maps really tell me absolutely nothing about the trail except for a squiggly line on a paper.
      At least with the Satellite pictures, a user could see trees, clearings, roads, geographical characteristics…. with a topo, a user could look(as with the link above) and see where climbs and descents are, if the trail follows a ridgeline, crosses a river or creek or goes around a lake, where the trail is in relations to roads and other objects.

      I will admit that I have not spent money for a premium membership – I earned my membership by submitting GPS tracks for others who may pay for membership to use. I see it as a very fair trade…I spent over $500 for my GPS, software, brackets to carry the GPS on my bike, etc. I’ve also invested well over 100 hrs in mapping and uploading maps to the website. I’ve even re-submitted maps for trails I had already mapped when trails were expanded or when I had a GPS track of a trail which I thought turned out more accurate than ones I had previously posted.

      I think this was a good trade in services for the annual membership fee. I also opted to not receive the money offered for submission for FL and NC trails a while back. I did this because I enjoy knowing that people who come ride the trail that I mapped may get a little bit more out of riding the trail because they were a little bit more informed because of the map I had a part in creating. I certainly know(as I have learned the hard way on past trails) that finding your way without a detailed trail map especially when you may have a limited time to ride and a wrong turn could mean the difference between a great day or an awful day on the trail.

      I am asking please reconsider the use of these simple maps and go with some option which provides more detail and points of reference – preferrably some topo map. I think most of your premium members are experienced bikers and can interpret what it tells them – or can learn. And a color printer is almost standard operating equipment for any PC nowadays.

      Finally, I ask that you reconsider because I have always been motivated to get as many GPS tracks as I could out on this website – always making a point to try new trails and map them when I traveled or to maintain the existing trails in my local area so that the most recent trail maps are out there for your users. I made this commitment because I STRONGLY believe you offer the best website for mountain biking and trail information that I have ever used and I want to be a part of helping you to continuosly improve it.

      Thanks.

    • #70025
      I’ve found with topographical maps, it’s very easy to find trails and landmarks, and calculate elevation gains & losses.

      Anyone with any Army training should know how to read a topo, let alone navigate using a map and a compass. It becomes instinct after awhile, like cleaning your weapon.

      I have been on some rides where the proffered map barely told you where you were and on others where it was so detailed the trails got lost in the clutter.

      I guess it depends on the user. Personally, I will upload any tracks I can find to my GPS just for reference and I will bring a topo map along. I guess it just depends on the familiarity I have with the area.

    • #70026

      Have to agree with EZ-E. People who sign up for a premium membership are going to be disappointed that they are not getting a detailed map. I know I would.

      I wonder if there is some balance that could be struck. so that you take the track data that people have uploaded and create and interface with Terraserver, that allows you to overlay the track on a Topo map in a new window and from there you either print it or save the image file to your hard disk.

      Do that for aerials, too, and then you would be rocking.

    • #70027
      I have been on some rides where the proffered map barely told you where you were and on others where it was so detailed the trails got lost in the clutter.

      Very true. That is why I try to stick with USGS and Forest Service/BLM/DNR topo maps. Generally they have a good detail/scale ratio. True, they don’t detail individual trees & mundane terrain features (like big boulders), & a lot of smaller man-made landmarks, but on a whole, the topo map is far more versatile than a straight satellite image w/ trail outline.

      EZ-E had a lot of very good points!

    • #70028

      Thanks for the thoughtful responses, as you know singletracks is all about feedback and constant improvement.

      I agree that you can produce some sweet maps w/ topo programs like National Geo and TopoFusion but the problem is they aren’t consistently good. Here are two versions of a sample map of Lake Crabtree (the only zoom levels available for this area):

      Image

      Image

      As you can see these maps suck. Granted alot of trails come out looking good (like the Captain Jack’s sample) but just as many don’t. These were created from the same topo map data that everyone uses – Terraserver, TopoFusion, National Geo (the version I own), GPS Visualizer, et al. Those who don’t use the scanned USGS maps (DeLorme, perhaps the *new* National Geo software) won’t let you reproduce their data (believe me, we offered to pay DeLorme and they wouldn’t allow us to use their data for ANY price).

      So how about this – we’ll hold off on building more simple maps and allow folks to offer additional solutions. I’m confident that we’ve looked at the most obvious ones but who knows, maybe the perfect solution is out there just waiting to be discovered! Certainly any solution that makes it quicker/easier for me to process the maps will be a welcome solution.

      Although price is a consideration, we’re not just looking for free solutions so don’t let that limit your suggestions. If ArcMap did exactly what we needed it to do we’d have no problem plunking down $1500 for it.

    • #70029

      One more update – the Google Earth option seems to be off the table for now. I did a bit of research on the licensing and even the $400 Pro version doesn’t let you post screen shots for commercial purposes. However, you CAN download the KML trail file yourself, fire up Google Earth and take a look – for some reason that’s free ;)

    • #70030

      Thanks! I’ve called the contact provided on the Bald Eagle Hike website I’ve referenced ( http://www.ultrahike.com/course.htm ) to ask what kind of licensing/usage agreements they have secured to use the map they did.

      Their site puts a credit with a link at the bottom pointing to the TOPO! National Geographic Maps site.

      I know you’ve probably researched these, but have all of the tools on this website for the Topo Pro been reviewed:
      http://www.topopro.com/

      I’ll let you know what I hear back from them on their usage agreements/costs on their website.

    • #70031

      Awesome EZ-E, thanks for helping with the research.

      The Lake Crabtree maps I posted are good examples of the problems with using topo software for mapping certain trails. So… I’d like to pose this challenge: map the Lake Crabtree trail (GPX data is here) using ANY software you have access to and post the screen shot on this forum. I’ll be working on my own entry as well…

    • #70032

      I’ve got some time to take on the challenge, I’ll play around with the Crabtree file along with Global Mapper and ArcGIS. It’ll be interesting to see what we all come up with.

      I actually prefer the simple maps for the website because it gives a quick overview of the trail. It’s easy to get a quick view of where the trail is with respect to major roads and landmarks. Sure it doesn’t provide enough to really study the trail but since I download and view the gpx files on my own favorite software (ExpertGPS or Topofusion), I don’t need a detailed map downloadable from Singletracks. My software can produce the more detailed maps if I need them, but usually I just upload the gpx file to my GPSr and carry a BLM or FS map along with a compass on new rides.

      I agree with EZ-E on alot of the comments he makes. I was drawn to Singletracks because of the availability of GPX tracks. So many other websites and forums feel that trails should be kept ‘secret’ to keep the riffraff off. I completely disagree with that philosophy. If we want more of a voice in the public forums when it comes to construction of new trails, mountain bikers need to be more of the public land visitors. Getting people the correct information on what will be a suitable trail for various skill levels will get more people excited about hitting the trails. The more trails posted doesn’t necessarily mean your favorite trail will be noticeably more crowded. In fact, it may have the opposite effect and actually spread users out more. Being able to download a trail before I go certainly eases my anxiety about getting lost or running out of water, etc.

      I think that quality and completeness of the GPX tracks are what will keep people coming back to Singletracks as THE source for mountain biking trails. I think that we as GPX users should have some way to provide feedback as to the quality of posted GPX tracks and continue to provide improved tracks.

      The progression from static maps to a MapScript/MapServer based application is the next logical step in making Singletracks more user friendly. Having the ability to scroll around a map and see all of the trails that are near each other would be something very useful. Since these types of applications allow the client side to manipulate the layers shown on the screen, we can all create maps that we want to carry while on the trail. MapServer is more time-consuming to develop an app than ArcIMS, but IMO its not worth $10K for a project like this. With more and more WMS/WFS (raster/vector data) layers available on the web (including Terraserver) you don’t need to store as much locally reducing your server footprint for this app.

      Trek…I’ve got experience in developing these types of web-based maps and I’m willing to volunteer some of my time and resources to help get Singletracks set up. It’s been a while since I’ve done one, so it might take me a little bit to get back into writing php/mapscript. At the least, I can help you get going with it.

      I really like Singletracks and all those that regularly post on the forum seem to be genuine and sincere. I hope I can help take it to the next step.

    • #70033
      I’ve got some time to take on the challenge, I’ll play around with the Crabtree file along with Global Mapper and ArcGIS. It’ll be interesting to see what we all come up with.

      Absolutely – ArcGIS should be able to create some beautiful maps – I just can’t seem to make it happen on my own ;)

      I actually prefer the simple maps for the website because it gives a quick overview of the trail. It’s easy to get a quick view of where the trail is with respect to major roads and landmarks.

      That was the idea, I guess it’s not for everyone though.

      I think that quality and completeness of the GPX tracks are what will keep people coming back to Singletracks as THE source for mountain biking trails.

      Unfortunately less than 1% of singletracks users ever see the GPX data. We can talk about the "business" behind singletracks in a separate forum if anyone is interested…

      I think that we as GPX users should have some way to provide feedback as to the quality of posted GPX tracks and continue to provide improved tracks.

      Great idea, this was actually part of the original plan when GPX tracks were launched on the site a couple years ago. We need more people to view and use the data to make this helpful though (1% isn’t enough yet).

      I’m definitely looking forward to seeing what kinds of maps people are able to generate with the Crabtree data, I’ll post my latest attempts soon.

    • #70034
      Unfortunately less than 1% of singletracks users ever see the GPX data. We can talk about the "business" behind singletracks in a separate forum if anyone is interested…

      Great idea, this was actually part of the original plan when GPX tracks were launched on the site a couple years ago. We need more people to view and use the data to make this helpful though (1% isn’t enough yet).

      This would be interesting to learn more about. I would agree, though, because about a quarter of the bikers that I usually ride with have a GPS and half that many actually ride with theirs.

      Hey, I know this is getting deraily but I happened to notice that after GPS data has been submitted for a particular trail system, the option to add more is removed. Why is that? I hope to be submitting more GPS data for some the trail systems that I have initiated. If that is the not the case and you can then chalk it up to just oversight. Maybe I wan’t logged in.

    • #70035
      Hey, I know this is getting deraily but I happened to notice that after GPS data has been submitted for a particular trail system, the option to add more is removed. Why is that? I hope to be submitting more GPS data for some the trail systems that I have initiated. If that is the not the case and you can then chalk it up to just oversight. Maybe I wan’t logged in.

      That’s no mistake – the idea is to have only 1 track (map) that covers each trail listing. If you have multiple track files you’ll need to use a program like TopoFusion to combine your rides into a single file. Otherwise you can submit multiple files and we’ll *try* to stitch them all together.

    • #70036
      That’s no mistake – the idea is to have only 1 track (map) that covers each trail listing. If you have multiple track files you’ll need to use a program like TopoFusion to combine your rides into a single file. Otherwise you can submit multiple files and we’ll *try* to stitch them all together.

      Roger that. Makes sense. When I ride something new, I’ll be sure to give you a heads up that I have updated data coming your way.

    • #70037

      Has anyone looked at USAPhotomaps? http://jdmcox.com/

      It uses Terraserver and allows you to create a JPG of the map you are looking at either interactively or just one big map.

      Now, if you could find a way, to do something similar while overlaying the track file/layer at the same time, then you would have something that no one else can produce today.

      I am sure you have seen http://www.crankfire.com. There, you have multiple layers of tracks over a topo map. The only problem is that there is no "image" that is created combining the maps and the tracks.

      So, if you could find a way, to interactively display the track file with the topography map, and then take an image of that, by going to the print feature, then you can have your cake and eat it, too. At that point, you can either print the map or save it to a JPG.

      Alas, I am only Risk Manager and not a programmer. If I knew how to program this I would be doing that instead of what I am doing now. However, if you need a tester, just let me know. Happy to help the cause.

    • #70038

      Okay, here’s my first entry. It’s a quickie but you get the idea. Topo data is there but it’s faded a bit to make the trail and important stuff (like roads, rivers, etc.) stand out.

      Image

    • #70039
      Okay, here’s my first entry. It’s a quickie but you get the idea. Topo data is there but it’s faded a bit to make the trail and important stuff (like roads, rivers, etc.) stand out.

      Image

      That’s cool. What is this Crabtree Application? Is this freeware or what?

    • #70040

      Crabtree is the name of the trail – my method for creating the maps is top secret ;)

    • #70041
      Crabtree is the name of the trail – my method for creating the maps is top secret ;)

      Great method! Can’t wait to see it employed here.

    • #70042

      I know that some of this discussion is currently out of my technical league. I like the latest Crabtree Trail version you posted better than the simple maps.

      Now…I will provide a modest question noting that I don’t know how I can do much better! My question is there a cost-effective and legal(in the way of copyrights) way or layer which can be added to take the Crabtree Topo up a notch and have the "3D Relief" map drawing on which the trail is superimposed?

      I think having the 3D Topo will really make the map very easiest to interpret.

    • #70043

      FYI…I had a response from the contact from the Bald Eagle Megatransect site – the site who uses the Nat’l Geographic TOPO! 3D map and profile for their trail
      (See bottom of this page link: http://www.ultrahike.com/course.htm )

      He said that they did not have to purchase any additional licensing to publish the map software on their site. All they were required to do was post the copyright credit at the bottom of the map:
      Map created with TOPO! © National Geographic Maps http://www.nationalgeographic.com/topo

      Now…that’s also considering that they had the PA state TOPO! software, in that case it could get pretty expensive to buy all of the states, as mentioned. The contact I spoke with gave me another name of the guy who handled the posting of the map to the site so I could get all of the details. I will pursue as soon as possible.

      He also suggested another topo mapping software provider which he has personally found to be very easy to use, said offers great detail layers, and may be also easy to work with on licensing to publish…

      Terrain Navigator by MapTech:
      http://www.maptech.com/land/terrainnavi … ?infopg=df

      Sample Map Gallery, see 3D .gif:
      http://www.maptech.com/land/terrainnavi … pg=gallery

      MapTech FREE Online MapServer Maps(these appear to only be 2D – USGS style):
      http://www.maptech.com/company/linktous … C1%2C1%2C0

    • #70044

      If you go with the TOPO option, I’d happy to help out. I have the Northeast Edition.

    • #70045

      Here’s a quick version of the trail map produced via Global Mapper.

      Image

      It’s got elevation shade relief, roads, contours (10ft), and canopy cover. It’s still missing hydrology but I’m working on getting that.

      Global Mapper is a lot cheaper than ArcGIS but it does have it’s limitations. I thought I’d try by making the map using the cheaper software first. I’ll work a similar one up in ArcGIS next.

      BTW, anyone else having trouble with downloading from terraserver over the past couple of days? That’s the problem with Topofusion and ExpertGPS…If Terraserver goes down, the software can only use locally cached map tiles.

    • #70046
      BTW, anyone else having trouble with downloading from terraserver over the past couple of days? That’s the problem with Topofusion and ExpertGPS…If Terraserver goes down, the software can only use locally cached map tiles.

      Yeah, my USAPhotoMaps is no workey, and that means GPSVisualizer is also Kaput. I wondering MS is up to something.

    • #70047

      But it looks like its working now.

    • #70048

      DIGGIN’ IT!! This latest Topo map is on-track and getting somewhere!! Hey people…if your "stealthing" this thread – let’s hear some comments! Thanks JJ!

    • #70049

      Thanks EZ-E for the feedback…I need more:

      Is this better?

      Image

      I’ll start the bashing (and please join in):

      I think it still needs bigger road and trailhead label text. The trail line could be thicker. But I like the faded background better and I think the labels are better too.

      Question: Is there actually a lake to the south of this trail? The aerial imagery shows one, the elevation shows what looks to be a dam, but the topo doesn’t have it AND the hydrography available on the web has it missing too.

    • #70050

      Once you can get the bugs worked out, is there a possibility to address the map in layers?

      So, the first or base layer is the topology (terrain features and contours)?

      Second, man made stuff like roads, buildings, brothels, bars, etc…

      Third, Waypoints

      Fourth, Actual Trails.

      Final feature would be to capture an image to a JPG file and download to your PC.

      I use something similar on a website called crankfire.com, although the drawback there is the only way to get the map to to do a screen capture.

    • #70051

      Wow, both of these maps look amazing. I liked the first one alot and I like the second attempt even more. The shading in ArcGIS is a bit more subtle, though you’re right – the labels are a little small. Is it easy to bump these up?

      To answer your question JJonas, there is indeed a lake to the south of the trail and I don’t know why this doesn’t show up. It isn’t on the topo maps I built either, go figure…

      Question: where does the GIS data you’re using come from? Do you have to download the areas you need manually or does the software automatically find it online? In my brief experience with ArcGIS I found it frustrating that I had to hunt down multiple data sources just to create a simple map…

      Also, how do the overall software package costs compare between Global Mapper and the ArcGIS setup you’re using?

    • #70052

      Forgot to mention that I think that map is smoking hawt!

      You get this built into this site and Mtb’ers will be banging down the doors.

      Speaking of maps, what are the maps like at Trails.com? I have never bothered to sign up for the free trail because its one of the deals if you forget to cancel they start charging you.

      Are they any good?

      P.S. Sorry for the derail.

    • #70053

      Hehe… Funny you should ask about Trails.com maps. They are exactly like the "Simple Maps" that started this whole discussion…

      Trails.com simply sells digital FalconGuide excerpts on an ala carte basis. Since the guidebooks are black and white "line art", so are the Trails.com guides.

    • #70054

      Second one looks good, too. The one thing that I think is a definite "KEEPER" from your first map is the more enhanced shading to accentuate the elevation.

      Is it possible to get a little of the 3D relief feel of the first map in while using the premise of the second concept map?

    • #70055
      Trails.com simply sells digital FalconGuide excerpts on an ala carte basis. Since the guidebooks are black and white "line art", so are the Trails.com guides.

      So, in other words, Trails.com is a big fake? Glad I never subscribed to them. Do they let you download GPS tracks?

    • #70056
      So, in other words, Trails.com is a big fake? Glad I never subscribed to them. Do they let you download GPS tracks?

      Not sure I’d call them a fake – they are just targeting a more recreational audience. Trails.com is good for getting info on hiking trails and the like, I just never found them helpful for MTB info (though I do buy printed guidebooks by Falcon, this way is cheaper since you don’t have to purchase each trail separately).

      Trails.com also does not allow you to download GPS tracks since they don’t even have access to the underlying GPS trail data (everything comes from outside publishers, remember?). One thing they offer is "unlimited topos" but this is just a hook into Terraserver that gives you the same (free) maps you can access anywhere else (like terraserver.microsoft.com). No trail overlays, just raw topo images.

      Interesting side note: the company that owns Trails.com recently approached us to see if we were interested in selling singletracks. Guess what we said?

    • #70057
      Interesting side note: the company that owns Trails.com recently approached us to see if we were interested in selling singletracks. Guess what we said?

      Thank god you didn’t sell out like Motionbased.

    • #70058

      [quote]Interesting side note: the company that owns Trails.com recently approached us to see if we were interested in selling singletracks. Guess what we said?[/quote]

      You my dawg Trek7Thou…don’t you sell out unless they’re talking retirement kinda money….You all are sitting on a gold mine here!

    • #70059

      Thanks guys for all the feedback. I’ve tried to incorporate your ideas into this next version:

      Image

      Its got full shading turned on, bigger trail, bigger label text. Plus I’ve added a scale and a North arrow (we could make a nice one out of the singletracks logo…trek7–you got it handy as a jpg or bmp you could send me?). The only thing I see missing is a lat/long grid on the border. This is actually a pdf document exported to a picture. The pdf is MUCH better quality.

      Trek7: All of these layers were manually downloaded. All the base layers for this map came from 2 websites:
      http://seamless.usgs.gov/
      http://nhdgeo.usgs.gov/viewer.htm
      There are more and more ‘WMS/WFS’ layers available that can be used by linking your maps through the web, but they are sometimes difficult to find and I currently find it easier to use the USGS and NHD geospatial databases.

      It’s hard to compare Global Mapper to ArcGIS. Unfortunately, they both have their strong points. Global Mapper is better at:
      –file type conversion (very handy for gpx->shapefile or shp->gpx)
      –contour generation (you choose the interval and you can even simplify)
      –tiling big vector and raster maps into smaller files (great for reducing page load times)
      –hill shading
      Global Mapper’s biggest downfall is the poor quality labeling and limited ability to query the data layers.
      ArcGIS is much better with labels and producing good quality maps but the $1500 price tag is a bit much (Global Mapper is ~$400) and if you want to do hill shading and contour lines you need to purchase the $2500 extension.

      I created this by downloading the NED (1 arc second resolution), Canopy Cover (2001), and BTS roads layer from USGS. Hydrography was from NHD. I generated contours in Global Mapper and exported the hill shade layer from GM too. Pulled all of it into ArcGIS and defined the symbology.

      RemfSS: The layers you’re talking about is exactly what you could do with a website running MapScript. The user has control over which layers are shown and can zoom in and out plus pan around. The creation of the map is done ‘behind the scenes’ and gets spit out as a picture on the website. Very easy to ‘save picture as’ when you have the map looking the way you want.

      Keep the ideas coming!

    • #70060

      JJonas,

      That last map is nice. Was it all done in ArcMap? This thread has revived my guidebook efforts for SE WY. It has stalled because I haven’t figured out the best way to do the maps. I think this thread will solve that problem for me. I’ve been avoiding using ArcMap because of the file conversion and data acquisition efforts. But its really just me being lazy.

      JJonas, I might pm you to see if you’ll share some tips if I can’t get some of the things resolved.

      Great thread! 😮

    • #70061

      That map rocks! It would be nice to see all the maps here done that way but it looks like a lot of work. Hell, just navigating the USGS site takes for ever.

    • #70062

      I really like the last one on page 3 as well! You can really get a feel for what to expect if you are headed out to hit the trail for the first time.

      Given that it appears the Crabtree trail has a total elevation difference(low/high) of only about 50-75ft…I’m anxious to see how the 3D comes out on some trails with greater elevation differences!

      I appreciate all of the technical discussion regarding the different mapping…I am probably going to have to read through it again to follow and understand it!!

      By the way…you know how JJonas asked about if there was a lake next to the Crabtree trail(you can see the lake on the actual post out on the website now). On JJonas’s map layers it comes up as two converging creeks/rivers. I’ll bet that is because these two creeks were dammed to create that lake. I wonder if that would give us an indication as to the age or the mapping logic of some of the source layer?

      Hey…looking great…I’m really looking forward to if singletracks can incorporate this level of detail for all trailmaps!! Thanks for your commitment to making it happen.

    • #70063

      I’m sorry but the emporer is really naked here. JJ’s map is so impressive. I mean that sincerely, it’s freaking artistic.

      But Trek7k was right in the first place in that simple maps are the way to go. I think this conversation has beeen seduced by the sexiness of all these professional images, becasuse, admitedly the technology is so, so so cool.

      But technology is only better when it’s truely better and none of these examples have provided me with the information I’m looking for when I come to this website.

      [u]I don’t come to this site to replace the maps that I already own. [/u]

      I come here to check out ideas for new rides. The only times I have ever brought a printout from a website with me on a ride has been when it was tucked inside my map the same way I sometimes tuck a photocopy from a book.

      I don’t think you should try to compete with waterproof, tearproof maps or professional mapping software unless you genuinely believe that you can give me better value than the big players can. Pretty soon, we’ll all have GPSs in our cell phones anyway so that market is destined to become even less lucrative for you.

      What I want from you is to tell me how to get to the trail, how to navigate the route once I’m there and some subjective semblance of what to expect. I also think it would be really groovy if you had elevation profiles like a lot of books have with the elevation/miles graph. That’s a much quicker way to get an idea of how a trail rides than any topo map.

      Don’t try to replace my maps. I’d rather that you replaced my books by giving me more up to date and comprehensive information than they can and a group of people I can exchange information with. The high tech graphics are really seductive, but are still less useful.

    • #70064

      First off, I have to say that I am [i:3n6ka98g]very[/i:3n6ka98g] impressed by what you guys are putting together.

      While I agree that a map should provide as much or more info than what I can get from an off-the-shelf map, there are a lot of places where I go that just don’t have decent maps available and I end up cobbling things together from various sources. It seems that happens less and less since mapping data and software have made it possible for lots of people to get into the mapping business. But, in any case, being able to print out a quick map without having to go down to the local outdoors store (or order off the web) is really handy, and often all that I need. If the quality is consistent then I would be thrilled to get maps from singletracks.com. I may even pay money to get them.

      So keep it up — I like what I see and am really interested in seeing what can be done.

    • #70065

      Arnold-
      I can appreciate your comments from an alternate point-of-view. However, I still must respectfully disagree and provide some responses to your posts above. Please in no way take this as insulting or an effort to silence your concerns…I’m sure that all the parties on this forum are continually interested in hearing negative feedback as well as favorable.

      1. "I don’t come to this site to replace the maps that I already own…."
      "….I don’t think you should try to compete with waterproof, tearproof maps or professional mapping software unless you genuinely believe that you can give me better value than the big players can."

      Answer: With the advent of mapping similar to the concepts and recommendations you’ve seen on this forum, Singletracks.com users will have a constantly updated mountain bike trail resource that general area maps and mapping software alone cannot provide. A 3D image of the trail terrain with a drawn track of the actual trail super-imposed along with landmarks and other terrain features that a user may utilize to prepare for and orient to during a ride – especially their first ride on an unfamiliar trail.
      Also, these maps available on the Singletracks.com website will allow the premium user to view and print a trail map which shows the track AND 3D inclines/declines on the trail which the simple map alone cannot do – while allowing the user to one-click print the map without any further manipulation or downloading to third party software…."Print and Ride" mapping capability, if you will.

      2. "What I want from you is to tell me how to get to the trail"

      Answer: Directions to the trail can be found at the top of every trail profile page. These directions are provided by the submitting user or updating user based on their personal experience to get to the trail.
      Google Map directions are available for trails where a user has updated the "Trailhead Waypoint" coordinates. When Singletracks.com has the lat/long, it will provide a link in the "Directions" section – the link to click on says "Google". You may plug in you’re starting location and Google map to the trailhead coordinates.
      Conversely, any trail which has a GPS map which this forum is addressing SHOULD have the coordinates for the trailhead or beginning of the trail. Also, if you take a look, the "simple map" and google map are very similar…why just use what looks like a roadmap to define the off-road area of the trail which you will be riding?

      3. "How to navigate the route once I’m there and some subjective semblance of what to expect"

      Answer: If you own a GPS and are a registered premium Singletracks.com user, there is a link called "GPX file" on every map page for trails which have available uploaded maps. By clicking on this link, it will provide you with the downloadable track points with which you may load to your GPS and "build" a route.
      If you do not own a GPS, these proposed 3D-detail printed maps will allow you to quickly print a map which will inform you where the trail: starts/ends, parallels or intersects roads/streams/lakes/etc, ASCENDS terrain(3D topo only), or DESCENDS terrain(3D topo only). The topographical and 3D features are something that most GPS units do not offer without additional costly software – I have the Garmin Topo software for my handheld GPS and it is not even that great, I would get more as far as topographical/elevation changes out of the 3D map like the Crabtree trail in the forum above.

      4. "It would be really groovy if you had elevation profiles like a lot of books have with the elevation/miles graph"

      Answer: This feature is currently provided to premium members on the "Trail Map" link for each trail which has a GPS map.
      (Example: http://www.singletracks.com/gps-tracks/ … .php?id=26)
      The benefit which you will gain from a 3D relief map in addition to the elevation profile is the 3D map will actually show you WHERE the climb or descent is on a topographical map as opposed to just showing the distance at which the climb descent occurs. With the detailed 3D map you may also see where a climb/descent may have a switchback, off-camber, ridgeline, etc characteristic.

      5. "I’d rather that you replaced my books by giving me more up to date and comprehensive information than they can and a group of people I can exchange information with."

      Answer: These "Print and Ride" detailed 3D maps will replace your book. Why? Because most GPS maps uploaded to the site are provided by users who KNOW the trail…some trails I have uploaded updated maps multiple times to include trail extensions or to improve the quality of the map. That would be like a book publisher sending you updated maps for your book a page at a time! Comprehensive- The detailed 3D map is exactly that as compared to the simple maps, providing comprehensive layers of terrain, elevation, landmarks, etc. in one map.
      The other benefit a Singletracks.com user will realize that a printed map is the trail super-imposed on a topo map on an expendable 8.5X11 sheet of paper…no bulky book or unwieldy folding map to manage. And if it gets wet or torn…toss it in the recycle bin and print a new one if you need it again!

      6. "Pretty soon, we’ll all have GPSs in our cell phones anyway so that market is destined to become even less lucrative for you"

      Answer: Actually the expansion of cell phone GPS capabilities would expand the ability to use GPX data for trail routing which INCREASES the market of Singletracks users that can pay to get the GPX downloads. Unfortunately, a low tech feature for the cell phone that limits it with respect to a bike…very few cell phone bar mount or wrist/arm strap adapters to make the cell phone(GPS) easier to access than a paper map or a standard GPS with an integrated bar mount. And when it comes down to the bare minimum…an inexpensive paper map never goes on the "fritz" or runs out of batteries.

      Hope this response helps to illuminate my point-of-view with some reasons why the greater detailed maps are a very important enhancement to ALL Singletracks.com users – and may encourage more "free" users to purchase the premium membership for a resource which cannot be found easily or consistently elsewhere on this grand of a scale(national/international).

      My thanks to Trek7k for his openminded nature in the interest of continuous improvement and to JJonas for really taking up the banner to develop some great possible solutions for all of us.

    • #70066

      One thing that most of us need to keep in mind is that there are two main markets for trail map data: map geeks and everyone else. These two markets are fairly distinct and there isn’t alot of overlap. (Disclosure – I am a map geek)

      Anyway, map geeks own a GPS and are interested in alot of the details about every trail they (we) ride. We’re in the minority still but *maybe* in 5 years or so more than half of bikers will use a GPS instead of a cycling computer. For now we’re on the cutting edge and we’re willing to put up with alot of the hassle involved in making do with the (limited) GPS receivers on the market today. Map geeks have a least 2-3 mapping programs we use to check out ride data in 2D and 3D (Google Earth, TopoFusion, etc.).

      The other, much larger market at the moment, is the recreational map user. This person wants to print a map to stick in his/her jersey pocket when heading out to a new trail just in case he/she gets lost or in trouble. I actually do this myself whenever I get a chance, and it’s saved me more than once. Recreational users also don’t own a single piece of mapping software (not even Google Earth which is free).

      So, perhaps the solution is to offer two kinds of maps: one to view online, the other to print and take on the trail? Sort of an advanced map and a simple map if you will. A focus group and/or survey of each group would be helpful here, maybe I’ll put something together in the next month or so…

      One more note: There has been some discussion here about adding online mapping tools to singletracks and this is certainly something we’ve considered. There are already several sites that do a great job at this (GPSVisualizer is one of my faves) and dozens more are popping EVERY DAY. Our intention is to keep things simple for now and offer a single "static" map that is the "best" map for a trail (good labels, proper zoom level, etc.). We’ll always offer the underlying geographic data for download in GPX and KML formats for advanced users and I personally recommend using offline software like Google Earth and TopoFusion for more advanced viewing. Online mapping interfaces are generally slow, clunky, and not nearly as satisfying as the programs I’ve mentioned (that’s why Google "Maps" and "Earth" are kept separate – they each have different uses).

    • #70067

      It does sound like offering two maps is the way to go: one simple map and the map that does it all.

      When that happens, someone will likely want something intermediate. That’s just the way things work.

      Great job on this map stuff!!

    • #70068

      That makes sense, always take the KISS approach when starting out and when it blows up (that is in a good way), then offer more. I am down for that.

      Hey, that means I am a map geek! I guess I can add another geek notch on my geekdom staff! Woo Hoo!

      If you need any help, feel free to call on me anytime.

      Keep up the good work!

    • #70069

      No offense taken on any account.

      In looking at my own habits, I generally look at a simple map before the ride and then bring a detailed map with me on the ride. When I’m on the ride, I usually never look at the map because I only really need it when I’m unsure of where to go. Some people are more cartophillic and like taking out the map during the ride just to compare it with their environment and I can totally appreciate that as I am geeky in oh, so many other ways. That just doesn’t happen to be one of them. I’m not really interested in knowing exactly where in the ride to expect a stream crossing, suffice to know that there are a few to be expected in this or that general part of the ride.

      I already own detailed maps for almost every ride on this website that’s in my area so the question of my having to go to the store to buy a map is moot.

      Just to reiterate EZ’s gracious civility, none of this is to say that my attitudes about riding or any of my habits are correct or better than anyone elses. This is just to represent my perspective as a matter of discussion.

    • #70070

      😉
      You guys suck. I was at REI yesterday and found a great deal on a GPS. I was one of those guys who had sworn to never buy one of those contraptions, but I was thinking about some of the stuff I’ve seen in this discussion and, curse you all, I bought the danged thing.

      And yes, I admit it; it’s really fun. I took it for a ride today and recorded a trip and as soon as I figure out all the details, you can all look forward to seeing some of my gpx files up here.

      …curse you tech weenies…curse you all…

    • #70071

      The quest for a better mountain bike trail map continues…

      After some research (thanks for your help JJonas) and tinkering we’ve come up with the following:

      Image

      It turns out making sweet trail maps is much more time consuming and expensive than you might imagine. This map, for example, took 3 software packages (including ArcGIS and Photoshop, neither of which are cheap) and countless steps to create.

      In my opinion it has most of the important stuff: trail and waypoints, roads to orient yourself, major landmarks (like the lake) and land designations, contour lines, and even some minor topo shading. The labels for the loops are just for show, I’m not sure if these are the correct names or not. The contour lines are a little tough to read right now and not all the roads are labeled but overall it seems to be a decent compromise between simple maps and the alternatives.

      Suggestions?

    • #70072

      Oh yeah, forgot to add: I really like the Haw Ridge map that EZ-E posted this week (below). It’s probably one of the most professional looking custom trail maps I’ve seen and it was created by a student using ArcGIS.

      Image

    • #70073

      Now that I’ve had a gps for a couple of months and the full membership I got for posting files, I have to admit that my perspective is different now. For example, I can now see that the elevation profiles are not only what I was asking for but are better than most books’.

      In terms of Trek7’s idea of having two maps, if the Raleigh and Haw Ridge maps represented the online and take-along versions, respectively, I’d say that it was a better value than what I can get at Barnes & Noble.

      I find that while I ride with my gps on my handlebar (which I’ve found to replace my brain’s need for a simple map more often than detailed map, ironically) I still have the same tearproof map that I’ve had for years in my pack. I was about to come here and say that I still haven’t seen anything online (at singletracks or elsewhere) that would compel me to print it out instead using of the map I already have. After all, the map is already printed, covers a larger area, is possibly already in my pack and it has lasted for years, suffering all my mistreatment. An online offering would have to be considerably better than the map to make it worth the effort.

      And then I saw that Haw Ridge thing EZ posted and THAT is a whole other story. It’s better than most books and maps and better enough to replace both. I love the way it deals with the trail network and the green/blue/black designations are a nice touch. And despite the fact that some of the smaller type breaks up a bit, the overall clarity makes it read almost as quickly as a simple map. I’ve seen maps of the more popluar areas that are still better than this, but they are expensive and they only cover the more popular areas. I don’t know if Singletracks is yet equipped to produce maps of this quality, but the Haw ridge map is what it would take for me to replace my maps. Maybe that student needs an internship?

      The last Raleigh map is really, really nice. In retrospect, I think I liked the satellite background better if it doesn’t sacrifice the text. It would be really cool if there was a list of the waypoints & their respective comments. Maybe you could put that in a seperate text box under the elevation profile.

      Assuming you can’t do Haw Ridge-quality maps for everything on the website (at least not yet), maybe you could just do as many as is feasible and sell them a la carte. I would probably buy them from you above and beyond my subscription and I’m the guy who owns a gajillion plastic maps.

    • #70074

      Something that I have started doing recently is riding with two GPSs. I know, it sounds excessive but I don’t have a GarminEdge 605 or 705 yet, so this is my new modus operendi. I use the Edge305 to record where I have been because nothing beats that and then I use my GPSMAP60 to follow tracks that other people have posted when I am riding in an area that is new to me or I am not with someone who knows the area.

      Now, I do have the advantage that in my part of the country, notably CT, there is a website for mountain bikers with a penchant for GPS called Crankfire.com in which you can download the track files for your own use.

      I still bring maps along as a back up and in case something goes wrong with my mapping GPS, which has happened before.

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