Does Trail Solutions actually sanitize existing trails?

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    • #122646

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FLrDv6S-M0

      While I am openly anti-trail sanitization and I’m not really pro-IMBA per-se, I haven’t actually heard of Trail Solutions coming in and sanitizing trails before. I was under the impression that Trail Solutions generally constructs new trails, and even if those new trails might in some cases be smooth and manicured, this video seems like it might be inherently flawed.

      Anyone care to comment with examples of Trail Solutions sanitizing trails? I am genuinly interested to find out if this is an actual thing.

      Also, the original article referenced by the video description: http://betterride.net/blog/2013/mountai … -powerful/

    • #122647

      Classic!
      I can’t comment about IMBA, but it seems a lot of land managers are mostly concerned about their legal exposure these days.

      Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

    • #122648

      I would be surprised to learn that Trail Solutions would come in and "sanitize" a trail on their own initiative. I suspect, as RJen suggests, that land managers would be behind any move like this. 😕

    • #122649

      This is from a discussion on a North Carolina forum on a trail relocation project on Lookout Mountain in Virginia.
      http://forums.mtbr.com/north-south-caro … 29001.html

      It seems to mostly come down to handbuilt versus machine built debate, ugly at times.

      Best trail pictures are on page 2.

      I have not been there but I hear it turned out quite nice.

    • #122650

      I’ve heard of Godwin’s Law but this is probably the first time I’ve seen it manifest in video form! But hey, at least they didn’t make Hitler the Trail Solutions character. 😀

    • #122651
      "jeff" wrote

      I’ve heard of Godwin’s Law but this is probably the first time I’ve seen it manifest in video form! But hey, at least they didn’t make Hitler the Trail Solutions character. 😀

      Godwins Law is a new one for me. It does seem to be true, if all else fails pull out the Nazi-isms. The term Trail Nazi has been around for quite a long time now.

    • #122652

      Sorry, just realized I haven’t responded yet… I’ve read all the responses, but as of yet I don’t think anyone’s offered up an example of Trail Solutions actually doing the trail sanitizing.

      And, in response to this:

      I would be surprised to learn that Trail Solutions would come in and "sanitize" a trail on their own initiative. I suspect, as RJen suggests, that land managers would be behind any move like this. 😕

      Yeah, if I’m running a company, I’m not going to go out and work for free… so even if anyone has any examples of a land manager hiring Trail Solutions to do trail sanitizing instead of building new trails, I think that would be interesting to hear.

      Also, I think the fact that people are having difficulty separating the company that is Trail Solutions from the non-profit that controls it (IMBA) and IMBA’s associated chapters is fascinating, and is basically the main thrust behind Gene’s article. IMBA is no longer just a non-profit–it has turned into a for-profit business.

      Anyhow, great discussion, but I guess the question I asked at the beginning is still out there, so if anyone has any instances of Trail Solutions sanitizing trails, I’d be interested to hear about them!

      Edit: CCR, just FYI Trail Dynamics, the one discussed in the thread you posted, is a different company from Trail Solutions.

      Double edit: Jeff, if you haven’t seen any of these hitler videos before, you’ve got to check them out. There are some pretty funny ones out there:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TGH7vBC2nw
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH6YqAMKxD4
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW9kRgQO-XE

      Non bike-related ones here:
      http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q … angry&sm=3

    • #122653
      "mtbgreg1" wrote

      Also, I think the fact that people are having difficulty separating the company that is Trail Solutions from the non-profit that controls it (IMBA) and IMBA’s associated chapters is fascinating, and is basically the main thrust behind Gene’s article. IMBA is no longer just a non-profit–it has turned into a for-profit business.

      I took a class in business school a few years ago about "social entrepreneurship" which is a relatively new idea. The basic idea is that non-profits should be self-sustaining instead of relying on foundations and grants to give them the money they need each year. It’s actually a really solid concept and the non-profits that employ it (like IMBA) can be very successful in their missions because of it.

      I guess where some folks feel like it’s a little unfair is where the non-profits seek to compete rather than complement or partner with existing groups in the industry. To take the IMBA example, instead of forming their own trail building operation they could run a program where they charge trail building companies a fee to become IMBA-certified and then recommend land managers utilize one of those companies for trail building projects. I’m sure there would still be some pushback from trail builders (no one likes a tax either) but it would be an alternative where the industry wins + IMBA wins.

      The fact is Trail Solutions isn’t the cheapest option so it’s not like they’re trying to undercut anyone out there. Land managers are ultimately accountable to their stakeholders in terms of getting the most for their money so choosing Trail Solutions is often not in their best interest. I would argue Trail Solutions purposely puts themselves at a disadvantage in terms of pricing, perhaps for the very reason of removing the perception of (unfair) competition.

    • #122654

      [quote="mtbgreg1"]
      Edit: CCR, just FYI Trail Dynamics, the one discussed in the thread you posted, is a different company from Trail Solutions. [quote]

      Woops my bad.

      For curiousity sake, what definition would you have for being a trail sanitizer or trail santization. Having been accused of being a one once I was wondering if lived up their expectations. Hell, I have a hard time even pronouncing it.

    • #122655

      I support IMBA because we don’t have the power of advocacy we once did relative to hiking. The American Hiking Society dwarfs IMBA and is doing a great job of protecting their interests: keeping bikers off of singletrack. We will not all agree with IMBA, their policies, or the way they design trails. Some mistakes will be made, and opinions will differ. It is up to bikers to join local chapters, volunteer, be a voice, and contribute input for local trail designs and maintenance. IMBA is a governing body, and does not have the corporate power to micromanage every berm or roller like local chapters do. I’ve seen trails get ‘neutered’ like Bull Mountain, but that cannot be blamed on IMBA. There are some great examples of IMBA making new trails that are awesome, flowy, and technical…have you tried Bomb Dog at Coldwater Mountain in Alabama? Sure, it’s no Moab, but they did a super job creating an amazing section of trail out of tick infested woods. SWAMP club built and maintains some seriously fun, and dangerous singletrack, in Alafia and Boyette (near Tampa) and is affiliated with IMBA. The sad fact is, trails evolve, and a lot of features we love about those trails are being lost…but I feel it is up to the individual to join an organization to stand up for those fragile, individual features or risk losing your favorite huck/rock garden/wall ride forever. Not to mention Mother Nature contributes to that trail entropy…Apex in Golden was obliterated by the recent Colorado flooding. IMBA isn’t going to come find you and consult your opinion; you must reach out and lobby to them, and make known what is important to you (ALL of you). And, by the way, IMBA isn’t a federally appointed organization…so if you want, create your own advocacy organization and give it a name like the ‘American Bikers Alliance’ and give them a run for their money.

    • #122656
      "delphinide" wrote

      I support IMBA because we don’t have the power of advocacy we once did relative to hiking. The American Hiking Society dwarfs IMBA and is doing a great job of protecting their interests: keeping bikers off of singletrack. We will not all agree with IMBA, their policies, or the way they design trails. Some mistakes will be made, and opinions will differ. It is up to bikers to join local chapters, volunteer, be a voice, and contribute input for local trail designs and maintenance. IMBA is a governing body, and does not have the corporate power to micromanage every berm or roller like local chapters do. I’ve seen trails get ‘neutered’ like Bull Mountain, but that cannot be blamed on IMBA. There are some great examples of IMBA making new trails that are awesome, flowy, and technical…have you tried Bomb Dog at Coldwater Mountain in Alabama? Sure, it’s no Moab, but they did a super job creating an amazing section of trail out of tick infested woods. SWAMP club built and maintains some seriously fun, and dangerous singletrack, in Alafia and Boyette (near Tampa) and is affiliated with IMBA. The sad fact is, trails evolve, and a lot of features we love about those trails are being lost…but I feel it is up to the individual to join an organization to stand up for those fragile, individual features or risk losing your favorite huck/rock garden/wall ride forever. Not to mention Mother Nature contributes to that trail entropy…Apex in Golden was obliterated by the recent Colorado flooding. IMBA isn’t going to come find you and consult your opinion; you must reach out and lobby to them, and make known what is important to you (ALL of you). And, by the way, IMBA isn’t a federally appointed organization…so if you want, create your own advocacy organization and give it a name like the ‘American Bikers Alliance’ and give them a run for their money.

      A SUPER AAAAAA+++++ response here "delphinide." and I very much respect it and give you kudos! 😉 😃

    • #122657
      "mtbgreg1" wrote

      IMBA is no longer just a non-profit–it has turned into a for-profit business.

      False. While Trail Solutions is a company that you have to pay to have them do work, and it is controlled by IMBA, this in no way makes IMBA for-profit. This is a huge misconception, likely rooted in the fact that very few people have any real idea what constitutes non-profit status, and who regulates whether someone qualifies for it. The IRS will very quickly revoke 501c3 status of any organization that violates the basic premise of qualifications for that status. Taking money for services does not violate those qualifications. The employees of a non-profit still get paid, the difference is the owners and stock holders accrue no value, apparent or otherwise, in the organization. People really need to get this right.

      The perception that IMBA is a bunch of volunteers doing a good deed is only true at the local level. At an national level, many of these people are paid professionals, because it requires a level of professionalism that you can’t get otherwise to run an organization of this size. The flip side of that, is they still have to believe in what they are doing because if they didn’t, they could likely go elsewhere and make a lot more money.

    • #122658

      What’s wrong with a for profit company? Often they do a better job and are even more ethical. Don’t care if a company is making money while providing a quality service- they are not mutually exclusive options. They original topic was sanitization- the most evil word in all of mountain biking. This is something that concerns me far more and we all need to be involved in these organizations to help avoid this problem. Have seen it happen at a local level also, so not just a big organization problem. Nothing bums me out like hitting an old favorite, just to find out it is now smooth as a baby’s bottom and friendly to every level of rider- we all need a good challange once in a while. Hundreds of all purpose (easy level) trails for every one advanced trail, let’s protect those rare gems with all of our strength. On a final note- all of the IMBA trails I have ridden were far above average and the word sanitized never entered my mind. Curt Gowdy is awesome, not to mention Bufalo Creek. IMO the IMBA is welcome anywhere I ride! Hope that never changes.

    • #122659

      Many of the trails that we are riding today come from a different time in trail design. A trail that is to steep and is rutted out is a trail that is failing. Newer trail construction uses rolling dips and terrain to hold the tread while shedding water. Please don’t get me wrong I have my favorite old school trails, granted they become washes when ever it rains, and some of the descents for me have turned from scary as hell rides to slippery walk a bikes. Still there is a lot of pride in telling everyone that I just rode (clears throat) such and such.

      The new trails, if built correctly are going to be smooth. Just as the Black Mountain in Pisgah was when it was first built. The difference is that the newer trails will be sustainable for a longer period of time. Maybe?

      I don’t think that anyone would go to the trouble of building a trail to bum out the users.

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