Overlapping trails in Colorado

[Jeff Barber]

Maybe some of you Colorado folks can help me sort these trails listings out. These seem to be describing the same trails:

Indian Creek Loop
Waterton Canyon
Colorado Trail / Waterton to South Platte

also:

Red Rocks / Dakota Ridge
Matthews Winters

If these aren’t the same trails they at least overlap to a large degree. The question is, do they deserve individual trail listings or should they be combined?

[bonkedagain]

Not exactly my territory, but I will kick in my $.02…

The Indian Creek and Waterton stuff definitely overlap, but each is essentially a different ride from start to finish. Technically, you could ride the Waterton Canyon section and only barely touch the Indian Creek loop. But, it isn’t clear to me what the original author meant by "Colorado Trail loop". The "CT / Waterton to South Platte" trail just does the same route, but doesn’t do a lollipop loop and instead keeps going up the CT to South Platte. So… I dunno, lots of overlap, especially the Waterton stuff, but still different routes.

[edit] Oh, I forgot that the description for the Indian Creek loop tells you to ride Waterton — I always start at the Indian Creek campground so I generally don’t even touch Waterton unless I go all the way to the bottom. I think the Indian Creek trail description should say to start at the campground and then list Waterton as an alternate access point (for people who don’t mind riding 12 miles of dirt road to get to/from the Indian Creek loop).

The other group (Red Rocks / Dakota Ridge and Matthews Winters) doesn’t exactly overlap, but they are commonly ridden as a loop since each section is short and one essentially connects into the next. IMO, they could be combined.

[cjm]

Red Rocks and Dakota Ridge are trails in Matthews/Winters park.
http://www.jeffco.us/openspace/openspace_T56_R75.htm

I would rather see one heading for parks. People can post various routes and loops in the reviews section.

[bonkedagain]

Ah, good JeffCo link, CJM. The map from that website explains a lot too.

[Jeff Barber]

Thanks for the help guys, that clears things up a bit.

I’ve been working on a simple guide to Denver metro trails to send to the local bike shops. The idea is to provide a laminated map that customers can use to find trails that fit their skill levels (while eventually leading them to singletracks to get more info ).

Anyway, here’s the first draft of the Denver trail guide. Take a look and let me know what you think or if I’ve made any mistakes. Keep in mind that the idea is to include a wide variety of trails from beginning to advanced as close to the Denver metro area as possible. That being said, there may be trails that should have been included that weren’t; let me know about that as well.

Download the Denver Metro Trails PDF

Preview: (see PDF linked above to read the back of the map as well)

[bonkedagain]

That’s kind of cool. Having an overview of an area is really handy.

One thing I don’t get is the need for lamination. I mean, why would you take it with you?

The one thing that, to me, is missing is what to do next. OK, so you decide you want to ride Lair o’ the Bear, how do you figure out how to get there? I suppose the "Singletracks.com" at the bottom of the page is a hint, but I would look for something more explicit.

[Jeff Barber]

Yeah, so these are free maps for bike shops to display in the store, not necessarily for customers take out on the trail. Folks can look the map over in the shop, get an idea about where to ride, then go to the website to get more details. We’re testing these in the Atlanta metro area and they’re getting great feedback so far. The lamination is to make the maps last after dozens of customers touch them with their grimy hands Oh, and shops are free to make copies if they like so customers can take something home with them.

I think you’re right about making next steps more explicit. Of course the large bold type at the top of the back page should help: "Discover trail maps, directions, photos, and detailed trail reviews online at singletracks.com!" Brand exposure is a bonus as well.

[bonkedagain]

Ah, I see. Great idea, Jeff!

How about something for the customer to carry out of the store. It could just be a notepad with the web address, a post-it pad, a newsprint (cheaper paper) version of the flyer… You know, something that has your web-site on it that will remind the customer to look it up when they get home.

[cjm]

I find you trail difficulty rating a bit interesting. Is that a finished product or a demonstration? How are you guys determining difficulty?
A second point, I would find it more helpful if parks like Mathews/Winters and White Ranch, had a range of difficulties instead of a single marker. White Ranch for example, has trails with both smooth gentle pedals and DH like chunder.
Three and most importantly, how about Austin or Oregon for your next map. It’s getting to be time to move again and a map like that could really help me pick my next residence.

[Jeff Barber]

"bonkedagain" wrote

How about something for the customer to carry out of the store. It could just be a notepad with the web address, a post-it pad, a newsprint (cheaper paper) version of the flyer… You know, something that has your web-site on it that will remind the customer to look it up when they get home.

Good idea, sort of like the strips w/ phone #s at the bottom of a "For Sale" flyer. I’ll have to think about how to do this in a slick way… Custom post-it notes would be great or perhaps stickers?

[Jeff Barber]

"cjm" wrote

I find you trail difficulty rating a bit interesting. Is that a finished product or a demonstration? How are you guys determining difficulty?

Each time a trail is reviewed on singletracks we ask the reviewer to rate the difficulty of the trail using a slightly modified version of the IMBA trail difficulty rating system. These ratings aren’t displayed on the trail page yet – we’re waiting until we have enough of these ratings to make them useful.

"cjm" wrote

A second point, I would find it more helpful if parks like Mathews/Winters and White Ranch, had a range of difficulties instead of a single marker. White Ranch for example, has trails with both smooth gentle pedals and DH like chunder.

Yeah, that’s a limitation of the current rating system. I’ve tried to include some more info in the notes if there are various levels of difficulty in a trail network, otherwise the guide might start to get a bit cluttered.

"cjm" wrote

Three and most importantly, how about Austin or Oregon for your next map. It’s getting to be time to move again and a map like that could really help me pick my next residence.

Austin is one area I’m looking at for a future guide but based on our current trail listings there just aren’t enough trails. Ideally an area will have at least a dozen trails and a dozen bike shops for it to be worthwhile. I also have no first-hand knowledge of Austin trails so that makes it much more difficult to create. Perhaps some of you Texas folks can lend a hand

In the meantime, you can use our zip code trail finder to see not just the trails in a particular city but also trails within a certain radius of that city. Here’s the page for trails w/in 50 miles of Austin: Austin area MTB trails

[steve32300]

hey jeff,i would print mathews/winters and green mountain next to each other and signify that these two places can be ridden together since there is a bridge that crosses hwy C-470 to gain access to mathews/winters trails.this is pretty much my back yard home trail and green mountain is a really good beginner trail system and mathew winter is the next step,red rocks trail being pretty technical with the morrison slide trail being alot more technical,and dakota ridge being pretty much expert level.to me these two places combined complete a whole beginner to expert trail system.
as far as the other trails, i havent ridden them too much so i dont know.
I was thinking that outlining a park and trail system like this would be a way to do it;

Mathew’s/Winter’s park (beginner technical to expert technical)
a.red rocks trail
b.morrison slide trail
c.dakota ridge trail
Green Mountain park (beginner singletracks)
a.
b.
c.sorry,i forget the names of the green mountain trails. 😳
and i should’nt forget that these parks are the easiest parks to access from the main highway I-70 from denver.they deserve to be indevidulized,although like i said,if you outline them it seems to make sense to me.what do you think?because they can all be ridden together from one parking lot if you like.
let me say this also,green mountain can be combined if you want.not much to indevidulize here except maby that the service road offers a pretty good smooth climb if your not up for a technical climb.it’ll make yo legs burn a little.it pretty much goes straight up the mountain for about half or 3 quarter mile.and mathew winter park trails deffinatly deserve to be indevidulized.there is a different quality to each trail here.hope this helps and if you have any questions,write your congressman.hahahahahaha.jsut kidding,you can ask me and ill do my best.
the morrison slide trail is an off shoot from red rocks trail and is another option of red rocks trail.they both keep going until they meet each other again about 3 quarters of mile down the trail.morrison trail is called the upper trail and red rocks is called the lower trail where they meet.

[Jeff Barber]

Thanks for the input steve, outlining the trails is an interesting suggestion. Space constraints on the back side of the map definitely make it difficult to say much about each trail system other than a short sentence. That being said I’m not sure how to best communicate the different trails w/in each system without taking some of the current listings off the map. Are there trails on the map that you think should be deleted?

I hear ya on the Green Mountain and Matthews/Winters trail proximities – I’m making that change right now…

[Jeff Barber]

Thanks for the help on the Denver map, here’s the Colorado Springs version. As you can see we had to combine a number of trails to make sure everything fit. Let me know what you think!

[bonkedagain]

You really have to include Cheyenne Mountain State Park. There are miles and miles of trails there. It isn’t a favorite of mine, but it does get a lot of bikers. Definitely blue square, except for the short Medicine Wheel segments.

Difficulty ratings are tough to do. I think I would give Palmer the black diamond and would only rate the Falcon Trail a blue square. Since the Falcon trail was reworked (by machine) there is almost no technical riding there.

[Jeff Barber]

"bonkedagain" wrote

You really have to include Cheyenne Mountain State Park. There are miles and miles of trails there. It isn’t a favorite of mine, but it does get a lot of bikers. Definitely blue square, except for the short Medicine Wheel segments.

Good call, those trails didn’t exist when I lived in COS. Which trail would you recommend bumping? I’m thinking perhaps Bear Creek Regional Park, that’s probably my least favorite on there…

"bonkedagain" wrote

Difficulty ratings are tough to do. I think I would give Palmer the black diamond and would only rate the Falcon Trail a blue square. Since the Falcon trail was reworked (by machine) there is almost no technical riding there.

Agreed about Falcon Trail, the only time I rode it was pre-machine work and it was gnarly, especially the section coming down from the Commissary complex.

Palmer Park is difficult to categorize with a single rating. Trails there are officially marked from green circle to black diamond so there is definitely a wide variety of difficulty levels. But here’s the way I think about it: would I want to discourage an "average rider" (blue square level) from going to Palmer Park? Probably not, an average rider would enjoy Palmer Park, even if he/she couldn’t ride [i:19ytabeg]every[/i:19ytabeg] trail. On the other hand, I don’t think I would recommend it to a beginning rider since he/she could only ride a few trails there without getting frustrated. So to me, this is a good trail for an intermediate to advanced rider, hence the blue square.

[bonkedagain]

I think if I were to dump anything it would be the Santa Fe, Gold Camp, Fox Run, Black Forest, since they aren’t that appealing to most bikers. Then again, they might be OK for beginners, so if you want that balance I can see why you might keep them.

A lot of work has gone into Bear Creek over the last year, so it is an up and coming area with real biker specific singletrack being added with support by the county. I say keep it, and bump the difficulty to intermediate — the new trails added last year warrant it.

I don’t quite get the name "Upper Cheyenne Canyon" since it isn’t really up from what you call "Lower Cheyenne Canyon". I think you could lump Bear Creek, Bear Creek Canyon, Section 16, Intenman, and Red Rock Park together. The long term goal is to link them all with trails, so it makes sense to lump them all together. Lot’s of new trails have been put into Red Rock Park over the last couple years and more are planned, so it should be included. It is still more hiker oriented, but some people like to ride there. I suppose I would be tempted to call this area "Lower Gold Camp" or something like that.

Another potential bump is Waldo. It may be a great ride, but it has so many hikers on it that I would be reluctant to encourage more bikers; it just invites serious conflict. I mean, you could include the Barr Camp trail, too, but I would exclude it for the same reason.

Regarding Monument, what you call Mt. Herman is often refered to as Limbaugh Canyon, and is a great ride (ignoring the fact that the bottom is currently closed). Another great area to ride that has broader appeal is what I call the "Monument Fire Center" — it has a proper name, but I just can’t remember it at the moment. Oh, and maybe this year the bottom of Limbaugh will get rerouted. They have been talking about it for years but never could get all the agreements and approvals. Since the new route is being done by bikers it should make the trail even more fun.

[Jeff Barber]

"bonkedagain" wrote

I think if I were to dump anything it would be the Santa Fe, Gold Camp, Fox Run, Black Forest, since they aren’t that appealing to most bikers. Then again, they might be OK for beginners, so if you want that balance I can see why you might keep them.

Yep, balance not just for skill but also geographical balance. I used to live on the NE side of town so I sometimes I would head up to Fox Run/Black Forest just b/c it was convenient. Actually I did more trail running at those places than MTB but you know what I’m saying.

"bonkedagain" wrote

I don’t quite get the name "Upper Cheyenne Canyon" since it isn’t really up from what you call "Lower Cheyenne Canyon". I think you could lump Bear Creek, Bear Creek Canyon, Section 16, Intenman, and Red Rock Park together. The long term goal is to link them all with trails, so it makes sense to lump them all together. Lot’s of new trails have been put into Red Rock Park over the last couple years and more are planned, so it should be included. It is still more hiker oriented, but some people like to ride there. I suppose I would be tempted to call this area "Lower Gold Camp" or something like that.

Yeah, I really wanted to call these sections North and South but I figured that would be confusing (North North Cheyenne Canyon and South North Cheyenne Canyon just doesn’t sound right ). Your Lower Gold Camp label is much better for Section 16 / Bear Creek Canyon / Intemann / Red Rocks. Maybe the Chutes could just be lumped into a sep. listing for Stratton Open Space and we can leave off Columbine?

"bonkedagain" wrote

Another potential bump is Waldo. It may be a great ride, but it has so many hikers on it that I would be reluctant to encourage more bikers; it just invites serious conflict. I mean, you could include the Barr Camp trail, too, but I would exclude it for the same reason.

Yeah, Waldo isn’t one that I’d recommend to most folks, same as Barr. It’s gone.

"bonkedagain" wrote

Regarding Monument, what you call Mt. Herman is often refered to as Limbaugh Canyon, and is a great ride (ignoring the fact that the bottom is currently closed). Another great area to ride that has broader appeal is what I call the "Monument Fire Center" — it has a proper name, but I just can’t remember it at the moment. Oh, and maybe this year the bottom of Limbaugh will get rerouted. They have been talking about it for years but never could get all the agreements and approvals. Since the new route is being done by bikers it should make the trail even more fun.

I think what I’m calling Mt. Herman is maybe Limbaugh plus Monument Fire Center? I park off Mt. Herman Rd. at the start of the singletrack, ride about 2 miles on singletrack then reconnect w/ Mt. Herman Rd. and climb about 4-5 miles on the dirt road. Then it’s singletrack up and over to a valley (Limbaugh Canyon?) – I believe the trail is #715. The last time I rode the loop it did come out at an official forest service so I’m not sure if this is the same route. Check out the Mt. Herman trail listing and map and let me know if this is the same trail you’re thinking of…

So here’s the list of 15 based on what we’ve discussed:

1. Palmer Park (Blue)
2. GOTG (Green)
3. Bear Creek Park (Blue)
4. Stratton Open Space + Chutes (Green)
5. Gold Camp (Green)
6. Jones DH (Black)
7. Capt J (Blue)
8. Lower Gold Camp, incl. Red Rocks (Blue)
9. Cheyenne MTN SP (Blue)
10. Ute Valley (Blue)
11. Santa Fe (White)
12. Fox Run & Black Forest (Green)
13. Falcon Trail (Blue)
14. Mt. Herman (Blue)
15. Woodland Park area (Blue)

Only a single black diamond left now, so much for variety 😢

[Jeff Barber]

Any feedback on the latest COS metro trail list?

1. Palmer Park (Blue)
2. GOTG (Green)
3. Bear Creek Park (Blue)
4. Stratton Open Space + Chutes (Green)
5. Gold Camp (Green)
6. Jones DH (Black)
7. Capt J (Blue)
8. Lower Gold Camp, incl. Red Rocks (Blue)
9. Cheyenne MTN SP (Blue)
10. Ute Valley (Blue)
11. Santa Fe (White)
12. Fox Run & Black Forest (Green)
13. Falcon Trail (Blue)
14. Mt. Herman (Blue)
15. Woodland Park area (Blue)

[bonkedagain]

"trek7k" wrote

Maybe the Chutes could just be lumped into a sep. listing for Stratton Open Space and we can leave off Columbine?

Yeah, the Chutes definitely go with Stratton. Mentally, I group it with Captain Jack since I typically ride them all together. Not many people ride Columbine since it has steep sections with loose rock and lots of hikers.

Note that the new park is "Red Rock" not "Red Rocks" (not plural).

"trek7k" wrote

I think what I’m calling Mt. Herman is maybe Limbaugh plus Monument Fire Center? I park off Mt. Herman Rd. at the start of the singletrack, ride about 2 miles on singletrack then reconnect w/ Mt. Herman Rd. and climb about 4-5 miles on the dirt road. Then it’s singletrack up and over to a valley (Limbaugh Canyon?) – I believe the trail is #715. The last time I rode the loop it did come out at an official forest service so I’m not sure if this is the same route. Check out the Mt. Herman trail listing and map and let me know if this is the same trail you’re thinking of…

Yeah, that is the right area. I believe the lower park is called the "Monument Preserve". When I ride Limbaugh (which has been rare of the last few years due to the closure) I usually park further up the road, and I don’t think of it as linked to the preserve. In any case, I have three different places I like to ride when I’m up there:

1) The Monument Preserve (the park at the base of Mt. Herman)

2) The Stoopid Trail, which comes down the gulley that is below the Mt. Herman road and ends at the Monument Preserve.

3) Limbaugh Canyon, which is typically ridden as a loop, starting at the Monument Preserve. This trail is officially closed at the bottom (as you discovered), however, unless you take the detour described in the trail description you reference. That is supposed to change this year, but I have been hearing "this year" for the last few years, so I will believe it when I see it.

"trek7k" wrote

Only a single black diamond left now, so much for variety

Well, you may consider putting more than one rating with an area. I still regard Palmer as expert even though it does have some easier stuff. Captain Jack can be pretty challenging, especially when it gets loose.

Regarding GOTG, (I didn’t notice this before), I don’t know anybody that rides there. It is like a mile long loop, so hardly worth even going to the place. If you are stretched for space you could dump it. In my mind, Bear Creek Park is a replacement for GOTG since there is a lot more MTB style trail at Bear Creek Park that is rideable by beginners, and it is in the same general area.

Have you noticed how SW Colorado Springs has all the trails? I sure would like to see more trails built up north…

[John Fisch]

. . . especially in light of the "only one diamond–so much for variety" comment.

First, the "Upper Cheyenne Canyon" according to the page, includes Section 16. Until recently, I lived just a stones throw from there and this was my favorite regular ride. The Section 16 downhill is clearly black diamond territory. It has very steep sections, loose gravel, loose and embedded rocks, very tight switchbacks, and off-camber drops, sometimes all in one place. Yes, the majority of that area is blue square, but that area has tremendous variety in and of itself, including a long/exciting black diamond downhill. This is easily more challenging (and way more fun) than the Falcon Trail (concur that it should only be blue) which is marked as a diamond.

Second, much the same can be said for Palmer Park. This was a convenient stop for me on my way home from work, so I rode it frequently. There is a tremendous amount of black-diamond riding there. Not necessarily downhill as total elevation change in the park is only a couple hundred feet, but highly technical. in fact, the longest trail in the park, the Templeton Trail (4.5mi?) is consistently rocky, full of large drops, huge rock gardens, and major step ups, throughout its entire length. Even many highly accomplished riders can’t clean the whole thing. Yes, there is green and blue riding in the park, but it all takes a serious back seat to the black diamond riding–and that’s just on the marked trails–there are hundreds of onofficial lines where freeriders and assorted knuckleheads nail stunts and look for photo ops.

I noticed this thread started out as "overlapping trails." In reality, all of your numbers 3 – 8 can be combined into a huge network of singletrack (wilth but a couple short segments of dirt road or pavement),

[bonkedagain]

Yup, when you start lumping lots of different areas into a single line on the page it really isn’t reasonable to assign a single degree of difficulty.

[Jeff Barber]

Ok, ok so it sounds like to provide an accurate picture of the difficulty of some of these trails we’re gonna need to include a range. Fortunately I think I can make this work w/in the design framework so we should be ok.

Again, this guide is simply meant to provide a starting point for proper trail research and planning. If you’re new to town you can find the names of some trails near your home that *roughly* match you skill level which you can then research further at singletracks.com. It would be sweet if we could include photos, maps, and reviews with each trail to give a more accurate snapshot but that would end up being – well – a book. Maybe next year

So, with the ability to include a range of difficulties, here’s what I get:

1. Palmer Park (Green – Black)
2. GOTG (Green)
3. Bear Creek Park (Blue)
4. Stratton Open Space + Chutes (Green – Blue)
5. Gold Camp (Green)
6. Jones DH (Blue – Black)
7. Capt J (Blue)
8. Lower Gold Camp, incl. Red Rock (Blue)
9. Cheyenne MTN SP (Blue)
10. Ute Valley (Blue)
11. Santa Fe (White)
12. Fox Run & Black Forest (Green)
13. Falcon Trail (Blue)
14. Mt. Herman (Blue – Black)
15. Woodland Park area (Blue – Black) [only a few spots around Rampart are Black Diamond worthy]

Any final feedback?

BTW, Garden of the Gods is included because it’s one of the first parks most people hear about when they come to town and it’s an easily recognizable landmark. I hate to admit it but GOTG was either the first or second trail I rode in the Springs when I moved there in 2000 (the other was the Falcon Trail).

Also, while many of these trails (esp. 3-8 as mentioned) can be connected, the average rider will only do one of these at a time.

[bonkedagain]

The only other nit I can think of is giving a black to Rampart. We are talking about one or two obstacles, so it isn’t like a significant portion of the ride is black. I wouldn’t want to scare anyone away from a ride that I have been taking my kids to since they were ten years old.

[steve32300]

Hey Jeff,I just thought of somthing for the denver map.I dont know if you know,but the cherry creek trail is just a concrete bike path.Just wondering if you really want that on the singletrack map?????Thought I would mention just in case.I reallly like this map idea and I can see where you would want any trail on there to get singletrack.com exposure.If I were to bet on it though,I would bet that the majority would get verbal directions anyways since even the church mice know where cherry creek bike trail is.I would think you could get more people on the site with trails that people actually need directions to.The cherry creek trail runs smack dab through downtown denver so everyone and there brother knows where it is.So just in case you would need to bump another trail off there to make room for more integral information,I would suggest cherry creek trail.I guess there is a littel single track that runs along side the trail,alhtough I believe it to be negligant.I’ve rode this trail a few times a long time ago and it does have the hunny’s on it all the time,but that concrete makes my back tighten up just thinking about riding on concrete.

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